I have problems with people who abstained. The hard thing is, how do you change voter behavior?
“We offered nothing and lost to a liar who said they would get something if he came back into office. Why did we lose?”
“We said everything was going great when the public was facing hardships and being targeted by systemic and economic inequality, and the dude lied and said he’d solve it. Why did we lose?”
“The last guy was unpopular and didn’t push back on Trump to get him jail. And then we said we’d do nothing different as Americans are facing homeless and their bodily autonomy being ripped away from them. How did we lose?”
“We courted Republicans who openly hate our voter base, alienated them by saying we don’t need you, and Republicans are too brainwashed to vote for anyone but Republicans. Why did we lose?”
I started having bad feelings about the election when I was watching a progressive podcast and they all cringed when talking about Harris campaigning with Cheney, then shrugged and said “what other choice do we have?”
That is not how you energize your base.
“We let the campaign be run by the same people who already lost against Trump in 2016. Why did we lose?”
Clearly, the dems need to be lying more.
No, I’m serious, they need to actually start hitting back in kind if they want to preserve even a sliver of the country. This moral high road shit sounds great but boy, does not seem to work in practice.
Democrats then: “We’ll win without appealing to Arabs in Michigan or anyone who demands we stop funding Israel. Shut them out of the DNC and scold them at every turn. Who cares how they react or that they’re forming PACs like ‘Arabs for Trump.’ We don’t need their votes.”
Democrats now: “We lost because you STUPID Palestine-lovers wouldn’t vote for us. Your country needed your votes, Gaza needed your votes. It’s actually your fault that we didn’t bother appealing to you.”
“We don’t need you! We never needed you! Every one of you is a paid Russian actor! We will win with Chaney and Romney!”
“GOD PLEASE WE NEEDED YOU! WHY DIDN’T YOU TRUST US?! WE CHASED AFTER THE REPUBLICANS TO MAKE YOU LOVE US!”
The more I think about it, the more this sort of gaslighting reminds me of Eve Online shenanigans. Which is fair, after all, users like Jibrish moderate r/eve like they do r/conservative.
Part of me wishes I could have a computer good enough to run Eve, but I don’t think I could handle the game and community lore in one whole thing.
I’ve spent 2200 hours in a game with next to zero good updates in 9 years, my brain can handle focusing on stupid bullshit.
But man Eve seems… Weird. In a good and bad way.
I was excited about eve for maybe a month or two, it’s not worth it. They present this grand game where everything is possible, only to realize it’s only possible if you spend 200$ a month and give up your personal life for it. Just way too many systems designed around a game that exists for monthly subscriptions and micro transactions (nice ship, would be a shame if you couldn’t fly it because you didn’t pay us this month, oh but you can still log in and fly our less efficient ship…). Definitely impressive, but the financial pull really takes the heart out of the game.
Man you guys have gotten so good at taking down these non-existent people making these non-existent arguments.
It literally happened to me on Reddit, mastodon, and on my previous Lemmy account.
And now even though I voted for Harris while criticizing her, I’m blamed because I used my 1st amendment rights.
To the DNC and right wing Dems, its always someone else’s fault why their candidate failed to appeal to the voters they are trying to represent. No accountability for their failure.
So basically, still in denial about how Trump and Netanyahu are going to absolutely wipe out Gaza from history now while gaslighting’ing as hard as r/conservative. The overlap with the way Trump voters handle politics is astounding.
Gaza had been getting wiped out by Biden supplied bombs for over a year. Trump wouldn’t be able to talking about “rebuilding” gaza now if Biden hadn’t already helped demolish it.
You’ve promoted trump as being the rebuilder of Gaza enough that all doubt regarding your motives here have been removed.
You’ve purposefully left out the fact that he has recently agreed to send Israel $1BN and a fleet of bulldozers, (something even his **allies** are condemning as an attempt to “_ethnic cleanse_.” Palestine) as part of an ultimatum where he told the Palestinians to either leave their homes forever, or become one with the craters their homes will become if they don’t.
The Olympic-level athletics it takes to side-step this fact and twist current events around to still make what is currently happening as being Biden’s fault while trying to posture trump as the one to fix things- can only be performed by someone…. let’s say, ”loyal”, enough to still believe his bullshit
I put “rebuilding” in quotations because I know he doesn’t have good intentions. You don’t have to be a trump fan to hate genocide regardless of the perpetrator
Trump and Netanyahu are going to absolutely wipe out Gaza
The fact that it’s already been entirely demolished from the Biden admin kindve nullifies this talking point though.
What does any of that have to do with what I said? I’m talking about the strategic decision the Democrats made to not make concessions to the people inflamed by the genocide in Gaza. In no way did I deny that Trump is far worse than Kamala/Biden. Pointing out that Kamala/Biden made a conscious decision to not move left on this issue isn’t gaslighting, not that you’re even using the term correctly
Americans had one vote, and you guys continue to gaslight what it effectively was, for Trump or against Trump. What it wasn’t was an opportunity to change the system by making a political statement, and now all anyone who has fallen for this rhetoric has done is cemented where it’s heading to now. To change it you would have had to work outside the system. Now, even attempting to do so is far more likely to get you locked up. Congrats.
you guys continue to gaslight what it effectively was
You keep using that word but I’m not sure you know what means.
What it wasn’t was an opportunity to change the system by making a political statement
I’m not even advocating for people to vote third party or boycott the election. I’m just making the argument that if a political party wants a group of people’s votes, they should court those people. If they fail to do so, and those people choose not to vote for them, the political party only has itself to blame
Don’t worry, the US looks like US voters won’t have to worry about being able to have any effective choice for much longer.
if a political party wants a group of people’s votes, they should court those people. If they fail to do so, and those people choose not to vote for them, the political party only has itself to blame
You seem to understand this, yet apparently cannot accept that you are not the only group that the party wants (read: needs) to court.
As shitty as it is, the Israel lobby has a stranglehold on politics in the US. Both major parties are beholden to them, and need to bend over backwards to try to keep these groups happy, otherwise their campaign is dead in the water. That is facts.
The reality is, in this case, those two groups are mutually exclusive. You cannot appease both (you will just end up alienating them all). One of those groups is much larger and far more influential than the other, and has the power and will to destroy your chances of winning.
They courted the second group because its literally the only possible way they can win.
Despite what lemmy might have you believe, leftist thought is not the default in most of the US.
Become big enough and influential enough that you need to be courted, otherwise they have no reason to give a shit what you think.
The Israel lobby has a stranglehold on politics in the US. Both major parties are beholden to them, and need to bend over backwards to try to keep these groups happy, otherwise their campaign is dead in the water
The assertion that the Israel lobby would destroy Biden for simply calling a ceasefire after unequivocally supporting Israel’s post-October 7 actions, is utterly unfounded. The kind of strong condemnation of the Zionist project that would make AIPAC walk is something Biden/Harris would never do.
On the pro-Palestine side, my view is that all the Harris campaign had to show was progress, either a ceasefire or a policy break with Biden, to get most of the protesters back on side. But I’m not 100% on whether she had the political skill to walk that tightrope.
I do think you make my point for me, though. The party did the calculus, and came out on the side that they see AIPAC support as more valuable than the pro-Palestine vote. With that in mind, the party should own that decision and not vilify the voters they scorned for not supporting them anyway. People would be a lot less angry if they just accept that they got the strategy wrong in Michigan and commit to doing things differently next time. But they won’t, because this is a party that never learns its lessons.
Democracy is being dismantled as we speak. Agency by agency, loyalist by loyalist, executive order by executive order. And instead of building community, helping each other and organizing with those around you, I see people, who supposedly care about democracy, about human rights, about those they accuse; and what are they doing? They are blaming people who are powerless and desparing. Thereby further dividing the populace and making the takeover easier for the fascists in power. Be careful: You are telling on yourselves and your values. And we can see you.
They are blaming people who are powerless and desparing.
you reap what you sow, these are the same people that were proclaiming EXACTLY what you’re proclaiming now, just a few months before the election, 6 months prior, a year prior, two years prior. We’ve been saying this the entire time, nobody listened, nobody has started listening, and nobody will continue to listen, what are we to do if not watch the world burn?
This is exactly what I am talking about. Do you care about democracy or not? Do you care about human rights or not? Do you care about Palestinians (Americans), African Americans, Latino Americans or all the others that are being blamed or not?
If you do, you don’t just play the blame game, sit back and ‘watch the world burn’ as you’ve put it. As long as you’re divided, you’re powerless.
Instead of blaming, you unite. Instead of antagonizing, you organize. Instead of resignation, you fight.
Hey look! The liberals are still blaming the left! What compromises were you doing in order to win the leftists votes btw? Maybe that is the question you should ask yourself.
Or maybe the Gaza detractors should have considered cause and effect. Or listened when Trump outright said what he’d do.
The question is specifically about people who refused to support Harris because of Gaza. Since Trump is so far objectively worse than Harris, seems pretty reasonable to wonder if any of them changed their minds now, even if it is too late.
When will you understand that leftists are tired of voting for the lesser evil? Lesser evil is still evil. You may not be aware of it, but the situation was already disastrous for many people. Now is your turn too because you ignored those people suffering for so long.
Regarding Gaza you’re an idiot. The situation is the same with Biden or Trump. Biden did nothing against Israel, and he would have done nothing more.
Trump is the doom of the USA. The whole world will be destabilised because of it. And all of this is because the Democrats didn’t care to even try to give anything to the left, considering their vote for granted.
The failure is the Democrats one only. The sooner you realize it, the sooner you’ll fix it. Or you’ll side with the fascists like liberals so often do.
Portraying abstaining, third party, and trump voters in the same group is pretty lazy, if not intentional.
The electoral college exists: Every person I knew in swing states voted Harris in exchange for someone in CA or WA voting Claudia de la Cruz or otherwise.
But I guess even Harris voters can be made into Trump supporters with enough effort at this stage.
The hard thing is, how do you change voter behavior?
Give them something to vote for. You can write articles of many paragraphs to analyze the course of the election, but in the end it boils down to this: The DNC pissed off too many of their voters and offered nothing in return.
Exactly this! You can’t just “lesser of two evils” your way through life as you slide towards hell. “Lesser of two evils” isn’t a choice, it’s a hostage situation.
The lesser of the two evils didn’t go after the bigger evil, offered nothing, said the economy was doing great as people suffered higher rent and groceries, and then wondered why people listened to the lying devil saying that they would fix their problems.
They don’t want to offer solutions, they want votes.
I will never regret choosing to vote third party no matter what happens. I will not regret my vote even if Trump marches me personally into a gas chamber. The sooner you get that through your heads, the better. You will never be able to “scare me straight” by pointing to the Republicans, no matter what they do.
The reason things have gotten as bad as they are, to where we have to choose between genocide and genocide-lite, is because of a complete unwillingness to have a spine and draw a red line, out of fear of letting the other side win. We have sacrificed every single standard and principle in the name of that fear. This “common sense” strategy of unconditional support of the lesser evil is actually completely insane, and easily falls apart under scrutiny.
However, if you cannot be persuaded that we are correct, then it is better that you see us as stubborn and irrational. Because a stubborn and irrational person will only be persuaded by giving them what they want, and not by words or anything else. If you want to make sure the Democrats actually win next time, the best strategy is to pressure them into conceding to our demands. Which, if you think about that for 5 seconds, it makes our approach seem a lot less stupid and irrational, but what do I know, I’m stupid and irrational.
The vote wasn’t between genocide and genocide lite. It was between genocide lite and genocide, plus additional genocides, some domestic, plus economic sabotage, plus the emergence of a new evangelical southern Baptist military regime.
I don’t think that narrowing the scope of the voting gap to just you is helpful, so I don’t want to use this as a moment to level scorn. I just want to be very clear that the premise you presented is wrong. Very wrong
It must be easy to stand from on high in judgement of others when you aren’t the one that stood to lose anything, because It’s the ones that have nothing to lose that always go all-in at the table.
Your lack of regret clearly illustrates that your decision was influenced by a colossal amount of entitlement.
The democrats tried everything except for actually grappling with the subject. Now blaming the voters completely misses the point … that the dems where supporting Israel and clearly stated they would continue the current path. Trump had the decency to lie to the constituents. And now they cope by convincing themselves it’s part of his plan. The voters where duped… but the Dems did this… not the voters.
Considering this group you’re pointing out wasn’t big enough to make Harris win maybe Democrats should focus inward on their own failures instead of playing stupid ass finger pointing games with people left of them. Y’all lost despite your stance on genocide, not because of it unfortunately.
I find it funny how everyone blames everyone except for the Republicans who voted for Trump.
Who isn’t blaming republican voters? Do you think that people calling this shit out are incapable of holding two simultaneous thoughts?
they’re a lost cause. they might learn when their welfare programs and fema aid are cut, but nothing rational that we can say will convert them.
This push to demonize the strawman protest voters is an ongoing propaganda campaign to cause poor people to infight.
Strawman?
6.27 Million more people voted for Biden in 2020 than Harris in 2024. That’s not strawmanning, those fuckers stayed home and that is exactly why we are in the current situation.
Cool. Neither party was palatable for a huge amount of people, wonder why.
If I’m offered a plate of tomatoes, which I hate, and a pile of shit as choices to eat, both are not palatable to me. But that doesn’t make them the same.
Yes but if the person handing you the tomatoes had been handing you tomatoes your entire life while promising chocolate cake you’d be a lot less happy about it. Especially if they also said “We’re not going to change anything and if you have a problem with tomatoes you need to take Econ 203 to understand why you’re wrong for being upset.”
Democrats need to get people enthusiastic to vote. Not getting shit on a plate is not enough to get people to vote.
Let’s say you’re completely right. How does insulting people’s poor choices 4 months ago help us in the present? We can’t create resistance and solidarity if we hold grievances from the past.
Because some people, mostly just tankies and anarchists pretending to be moral abstainers, are unapologetic about helping elect fascism. By exposing and shaming them, onlookers will reconsider their own stance.
There are actual Nazis in this administration, and you’re worried about “tankies?” Get it together man.
One’s enemies can exist on two fronts. It’s happened before.
“We are fighting the wrong enemy.” Allen Dulles expressed this sentiment in 1942, while serving as the Swiss director of the OSS. He had reevaluated the ongoing war with Nazi Germany and decided that the Communist threat was far graver than the National Socialist one.
You’re in good company
They’re literally saying Nazis are also their enemies.
And In The next panel a Nazi is stabbing the marginalized person and the dem is saying you voted for this.
You guys always tell half the joke.
It’s good to leave it open to interpretation, to keep people guessing.
They didn’t vote for it though. They just didn’t vote to stop it.
They were mainly upset that we don’t have a choice to not support genocide.
Which just betrays their utter ignorance of US history. Slavery and genocide built this country, of course we’re gonna support it.
From what I have seen they seem pretty aware of the history of white supremacy and genocide. I don’t know that this is particularly good analysis.
Expecting it to change any time soon was their naive mistake.
Y’know what this thread has made me realize? All the dumb memes of “the left fighting the left” are bullshit. I can respectfully debate other people on the left with me. I can change their minds about some things, they can change my mind on some things, we can come to compromises. I don’t agree with the communist 100%, but I agree with them at least 70-80%, and would happily work alongside them to accomplish that 70-80%.
You know who loves infighting though? Centrists who have deluded themselves into thinking they are leftists. You can find comment after comment in this thread from right-leaning centrists, gleefully demanding that they were “right all along” and how everything is our fault for just not being as smart as them. There is no political group that loves infighting as much as them, even more than the fascists. They want to spend the next four years trying to find out all the ways they can assign blame to the left, instead of organizing and doing anything.
Liberals thinking they are leftists refusing to realize they are actually conservatives in everything but brandng, but never having the dawn of enlightenment on that they are wrong, not the people who have been using the terms for centuries.
The irony in this statement is palpable.
Oh hey it’s the liberal troll who is smug and hates everyone who doesn’t blindly agree with their favorite leader.
How goes the stalking and alienating your allies?
The irony in this statement is also, palpable. Non-voters that blame ACTUAL voters for trump aren’t allies.
Sure bud. Lemme know whenever we can criticize the people you pay to bootlick.
It’s fucking hilarious how, suddenly- the protest-vote/non-vote ignorati are pleading with everyone to unify- while ignoring the fact that they were the ones that told us all to fuck off when we were trying to rally everyone to stand against the exact thing that that resulted from Their bullshit protesting.
I fucking called it!
I said that they’d all disappear after the election, and then return as victims of their refusal to unify against trump- and that is exact what is happening.
I hope they all enjoy the bed they made. I sincerely hope the cacophony of all the suffering they caused doesn’t keep them awake all night.
So is that a “no you can’t criticize my Dear Leader”?
That depends on what you want to accomplish.
If the only thing that matters to you is going to the polls every 1-2 years, than non voters are meaningless.
If you want to transform society. Voting is only one vector. Unions, mutual aid, protest, consciousness raising, and so on don’t have anything to do will polls, and non voters can be valuable allies.
Yeah, “left-unity” has always been a red flag for me. Most of the time, when someone talks about “left-unity” they are usually either authoritarian leftists who will historically shoot you in the back, or liberals who expect you to always support them but refuse to compromise with people on their left.
Honestly, the election was three months ago, and we have bigger fish to fry right now. My default assumption now is that anyone still trying to relitigate the Gaza voters is a Russian troll trying to sew division among the left.
Haha no hate I just think it’s funny you arrive at the same “Russian troll” conclusion as the people trying to relitigate the Gaza voters :Pe: i think i misunderstood your comment, retracted
This push to demonize the strawman protest voters is an ongoing propaganda campaign to cause poor people to infight.
This is a real propaganda campaign
Only speculation, but I believe you are right. This only started 2 days ago after Trump’s Gaza comments. It’s disheartening how easily it is to sway online discourse. Jokes on them, this only motivates me.
It’s also possible to run thousands of parallel chatbots to atroturf sentiment these days.
They will even scour the internet automatically to insert themselves into any slightly relevant conversation
