Found it. Since the gas goes through the same hose as the other blends, if you’re buying gas you need to get at least 4 gallons so the previous gas flushes out what was left in the hose from the previous sale, and fills enough of the container that the blend is primarily what you selected.
If you buy E15 and fill your tanks, then the next guy buys E10 and only gets 1 gallon, they might end up with a higher ethanol mix than intended, and if they use that on a small motor, like a chainsaw, it could ruin the seals.
I’m in Europe and I have never in my life seen a gas station that dispenses every fuel through just one hose.
Every fuel has its own hose and “pistol”. Each “pump” has two or three or four hoses.
In America, if a corner exists a company will cut it.
In the US only diesel gets its own pump, at least in my experience
Same though I do recall seeing pumps with multiple hoses for each grade a lot more frequently back in the '90s and '00s.
Every fuel has its own hose and “pistol”. Each “pump” has two or three or four hoses.
While those do exist in the States too, a single hose and “pistol” is used for all grades of gasoline and the operator presses a button to select their grade of fuel. The only time there is a guaranteed separate is between desil and gasoline:
The button leads to some interesting minor social problems. The expectation is that the use uses their hand or fingers to press the button, but the buttons are usually disgustingly dirty, so that lead many to using the tip of the “pistol” to smack the grade of gasoline which may put a drop or two of gasoline on the button. So those that come next and use their hands end up smelling like gasoline.
No longer interacting with public gas pumps is one minor joy of driving an EV.
i’m gonna be real with you buddy i have never seen a “disgustingly dirty” fuel button so I think the people in your area just grody. no offense to present company.
You never hit up a Shell station? Majority of them and independents I’ve been to have buttons that are worn through on the octane text for low grade. High octane is usually next most worn
I am a refined gentleman who only goes to turkey hill and wawa.
In America drastically different fuels like E85 and Diesel are dispensed with different hoses as mixing those with normal gasoline or vice versa in the wrong system could cause damage. But when it comes to different grades of just gasoline it’s all the same hose. E10 or E15 are pretty much standard in many parts of the Country of Corn (USA) so they are the primary form of gasoline available for normal cars.
Not in the us
Frequently in the US.
I’m in Australia and it’s on the pumps—like little manufacturer stamps that don’t seem to be aftermarket labels. Most people wouldn’t notice it and those that do wouldn’t understand what it means.
It’s generally a tiny label like “Minimum 5L” or something, near the nozzle, or on/below the meters.
I’m not from the US so my biggest surprise here is that you don’t get separate hoses for each grade.
Imagine getting Diesel in Germany. “Sorry, that was actually 15 liters of regular gas. ¯_(ツ)_/¯”
Edit: Ok, it’s not as bad as I imagined, since this picture seems to be about E15/E10, not diesel/regular.
diesel absolutely DOES get a separate hose, every time
Diesel are often entire separate sections of the gas station.
Most of the pumps in the US have the same hose for 87/89/92 octane pumps that are E10 (10% Ethanol) and if there is a higher ethanol like E15 or E85, they’re usually a separate hose.
Thanks for the explanation! I wonder what they would do if they caught someone dispensing only 3 gallons.
Federal law states the punishment is a bare bottom spanking.
😳
Federal law states the reward is a bare bottom spanking.
FTFY
I’m sorry officer. Looks like I only bought 3 gallons. I guess you’ll have to…punish…me.
Probably nothing. I guess it’s possible if you kept switching back and forth between pumping a gallon of premium and a gallon of regular on different pumps to try to steal a few dollars of higher grade, they can use it to give you a ticket, but I’m pretty sure they won’t really care if you were just topping off a tank of gas with 3 gallons before a road trip.
It couldn’t possibly be illegal as 2/2.5 gallon gas cans are extremely common.
How fucking big are American canisters? In Germany the regular size is 5l, [Edit:
just shy ofa bit more than] one gallon.Portable US gas tanks are typically 1, 2, or 5 gallon.
I usually just grab a 5 gallon (about 20L) can to fill up my lawn mower, throw some fuel stabilizer in there, and then I don’t have to go back to the gas station for a long time.
I do the same for my mower and mini bike. I can last a month on a 5g canister, well 5.5 gallons to the fill line according to the ⛽.
Fucking 15% ethanol now? So they basically just raised the price of gasoline 5%, and reduced the fuel efficiency of everyone’s vehicle, without so much as a peep. Where is this?
I would expect it to also be less expensive but they don’t show us that information.
I personally wouldn’t mind if my fuel mileage goes down if the cost is also proportionally lower.
Also, ethanol has a energy density of roughly 2/3 that of gasoline, so yes e85 would have 5% less energy than gasoline with no ethanol, not e10, which is what I see as the listed price in most places. When doing a price comparison, it should be against e0, not e10 if you are expecting a 5% energy difference.
Where I have purchased it it has been cheaper.
Would you prefer they ban driving? we simply cannot keep going as we are, things have to change and you can either change your habits alongside it, accept that you have to pay more, or whine as you keep pumping poison into the air and contribute to your own early death from climate change.
I got curious so I duckduckgo’d that shit.
Thank you for sharing the link. Here’s the relevant bit from the article:
Most gas stations don’t want to install new tanks just for E15. Instead, they’re installing blender pumps, which mix the ethanol and gasoline together in the right proportion depending on which one you want. But there’s a problem: if you pump E15 into your car, about a third of a gallon remains in the fueling hose when you’re done. If someone comes along, switches to E10, and buys a single gallon for their lawnmower, they’ll get a third of a gallon of E15 and two-thirds of a gallon of E10. That comes to about 11.7% ethanol, and that might be enough to set your lawnmower on fire.
So the EPA produced a new rule: if you sell E15, you have to require your customers to buy at least four gallons of gas regardless of what blend they’re buying. That’s a big enough purchase that the residual fuel in the hose is too small to matter
So… what are they gonna do if you don’t fuel enough? Is it just up to God to not let someone else fuck up their equipment after you’ve fueled up?
Except the warning is on the e15 and not the standard gas.
So it doesn’t matter if I buy 1, 2, 20 gallons of e15… As an e15 buyer I get the chance that it’s more gas than ethanol.
The warning of 4 gallons needs to be applied to the non-ethanol blend gasolines, as those are the ones at risk!
and that might be enough to set your lawnmower on fire.
Ethanol burns hotter?
No. It does degrade some fuel system components on fuel systems not made for it.
It also gums the fuck out of fuel injectors, and you’ll notice a drop in gas mileage Dependant on the blend. Its pretty awful shit. I don’t know why the hell it exists.
I think it exists because people have an unreasonable price sensitivity when buying gas. They will drive miles out of their way to save a nickel a gallon. I also think they don’t really have a good understanding of mpg factors. I was told by one guy purchasing it that he gets better mileage on it(which we know isn’t true)
Does this pump also dispense marked fuels through the same hose?
In my province of residence gas stations near farming communities often sell “marked fuel” (fuel with an added red dye in it) that are taxed less, and which are intended for farming machinery, road work equipment, boats, and other non-highway use only. If you’re caught with red-dyed fuel being used for any other purpose you can be charged with an offence, and levied fines or other penalties.
If you dispense a small amount of regular gasoline after another purchaser had bought marked gasoline, the dye in the fuel remaining in the lines likely isn’t diluted enough to tell the difference — and you could (hypothetically) then be charged with possessing marked fuel without the proper paperwork.
(Anywhere I’ve ever seen marked fuels sold usually has a separate hose for the marked fuel to be dispensed from to prevent this from happening — but I don’t know your gas station or where you live, so maybe they rely on dilution rather than separation to differentiate?)
The rural area i live in has pumps thst give non-ethanol fuel but is not dyed and costs more than the e85 they sell. No placards anywhere stating any federal fueling minimums either. I routinely fill a 2 gallon tank of nonethanol for my old yard equipment and have never had an issue
how often do the police pull people over to check their fuel color though?
It is not uncommon for semi trucks and other heavy haul vehicles to be checked. They can frequently hold several hundred gallons of fuel. So there’s a real cost saving using off-road diesel. Though if I remember correctly fine is $10,000 for the first offense so that wipes out your savings pretty quickly.
i am learning so much today
Yeah last time I checked off-road diesel was about 50 cents cheaper than on road diesel. So 50 cents times 100/200 gallons, can save you some money. Especially if you do it regularly. And I totally didn’t check to see if it was worth running in my diesel truck, you have no evidence.
Oh and for when they check, it is usually at DOT weigh stations. If they decide to do a random check or they see something wrong with your truck. They will do an inspection and usually dip a tank. Or at a traffic stop, it is usually only a state patrol that bothers, but if you’re unlucky enough to get pulled over in a semi truck. It is not outside the realm of possibility the officer will decide to dip your tank.
Hmmm. So if you’re a regular driver who’s driving a small diesel car or SUV they might never think to check the fuel.
Yep it’s very unlikely that they would ever dip a tank on a private vehicle. I’ve heard of a few people getting their diesel pickups checked, but it’s very uncommon. It’s also much harder to do you can’t directly dip the tank because of anti-siphon devices. You have to open the petcock on the water separator/fuel filter. So you have to know where that is you have to have a little container to catch the diesel in and you’re much more likely to get messy. It is not worth a police officer’s trouble really.
I’m definitely put off road diesel in my pickup truck a few times. Mostly when I was short on fuel and needed to get to town. Though I have known a few guys who run it regularly without consequence. Though it was mostly due to convenience opposed to tax invasion. They’re already on the ranch there’s already diesel fuel there and sometimes the boss is letting you fill up for free or more likely they are the boss.
I definitely wouldn’t pull up to an off-road diesel fuel pump and just pump it into my truck. That’s a little too obvious.
Easier to check driver color.
I can’t say for Canada but in the USA I have never seen or heard of off-road gasoline. And I worked enough farms and ranches that at least one of them would have been using it if it existed. So I highly doubt this is an off road tax reason.
Edit - it seems some people maybe thinking I am talking about off road diesel. I am not, I am specifically referring to only unleaded gasoline.
I talked to a farmer in Kansas (near Colby, iirc) who had his own gas pump for farm/off-road use only, so it does exist here. Probably only found on pretty big farms though.
Just curious are you sure that was gasoline and not off-road diesel? Off-road diesel is very common and almost all farm equipment is diesel.
Good point, it was a long time ago, so I don’t recall if he said gas, fuel, diesel or something else related
I know you weren’t directly questioning my assertion, but in case anyone else happens to think I’m just blowing smoke: Coloured Fuel | DriveSmart BC.
Yep definitely not questioning your assertion. I try to do my best to not tell other people how their country works when I don’t live there, I’m mostly successful
No, it exists in the States. I used to be a truck driver, and we used marked fuel in our refrigerator units all the time since those engines are not powering a highway vehicle.
Really where? I’ve straight up asked farm fuel delivery services and they said it was not something they could provide. Interesting, I wonder if they were being lazy or it has to do with state taxes or what.
Edit - your reefers weren’t diesel? Most of the reefers I’ve ever seen had those little three-cylinder Perkins in them. But I’ve never worked as a trucker so I wouldn’t know for sure.
Yes, they were diesel. I don’t think it’s as common nowadays as it was when I was driving because I don’t see the separate off-highway pumps at truck stops anymore. It was always a common thing at smaller, independent truck stops, and those are all but extinct, it seems.
So you are talking about off road diesel not off road gasoline. Correct? I am very familiar with off road diesel, but I can’t find any reference to off road gasoline
Yes, I’m talking about red diesel.
I used died gasoline in a boat.
Is it common? I have never been a boat person.
It’s not uncommon, but not as common as died diesel of various types. A marina in Orange Beach Alabama sold a died diesel called locomotive diesel that is apparently different in composition from agricultural diesel.
Sadly the tax advantages is absorbed by the vendor as they are located in the water.
Interesting, what color do they dye it.
Looking up locomotive diesel. It didn’t switch to ultra low sulfur for 5ish years after over the road diesel. I would bet it has a higher Cetane, probably some closer heavy fuel oil.
It was dyed the same red and slightly cheaper than other marine diesel.
Buying E10 fuel (a mixture that contains 10 percent ethanol) from a hose that also supplies E15 fuel (a mixture that contains 15 percent ethanol) must buy at least four gallons to protect customers following behind. Ethanol is hard on engines and less efficient than regular gasoline. E15 can even cause engine failure in smaller or older engines. So if you’re using a blender pump to buy E10 that sells both E15 and E10, the residual amount of E15 left in the hose from the previous customer could cause significant damage to those smaller and older engines—unless you purchase at least 4 gallons.
Hold the fuck up.
Customer A buys 10 gallons of E15.
Customer B buys 1 gallon of E10 from the same pump.
Customer C buys 1 gallon of E10 from the same pump and puts it in his chainsaw. If that gallon ruins Customer C’s chainsaw, it’s legally Customer B’s fault? What the fuck?
Forcing B to buy more gas than he might want, to protect the customer after him, because of the customer that came before him, is some horseshit.
The gas companies bought a law to exempt themselves from liability.
Story of everything…
Maybe these climate change purveyors should be forced to separate E10 and E15 dispensers.
Source?
This fucking law right here.
What, again?
Why is it bad to have rules which prevent harm to everyone?
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything. You ever see a 2oz bottle of Coke?
That doesn’t prevent harm to everyone it just allows gas stations to use a single pump and shift the liability onto consumers.
If you can’t see the practicality, that’s on you.
Boo. If you’re gonna troll, at least make it interesting.
Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything.
In the given example, is the gas station not forcing Customer B to purchase more gas than they may want or need? What if I have a chainsaw with a 1 gallon fuel tank? Now I need to not only buy more gas than I can use, but a container to safely store it in. (It’s also illegal to dispense gasoline to/from an unauthorized container!) Now if I use my chainsaw once or twice a year, I also get to dump out that extra gasoline because it’s gone bad by the time I need to use it again.
Do you have an ethanol chainsaw? Maybe an ethanol weed whacker? Got some links to these small ethanol motors?
E10 and E15 mostly aren’t ethanol. They’re 90% and 85%, respectively, gasoline, with the rest being ethanol.
Go on.
That’s a pretty stupid comparison. These aren’t prepackaged containers, and that’s a pretty key part of the terrible point you were trying to make.
Ok then, try to book an attorney for 10 minutes only.
This seems like it’s flipped around backwards. The picture says you have to pump more than 4 gallons if you are getting E15, but the explanation seems to explain why someone pumping E10 would want to pump more than 4 gallons.
I bet the real reason is that someone could pump a couple of gallons of cheaper E15, knowing they’d actually receive E10, leaving the next person to actually get that gas.
Ok, that makes sense, but why a federal law?
Why force companies to buy pumps that blend when you can force all liability onto the customer?
Gas stations can get away buying cheap blending pumps and if it breaks someone’s older car just shrug and say it must have been the previous customer’s fault, we’re not liable.
It’s probably administrative law associated with DOT regulations. So yes it is a law but not quite in the same way you think of when Congress passes a law. Instead Congress passed a law that said DOT we give this agency the power to regulate these specific things. Go create a working committee and create some regulation. Administrative law is a bit more like civil law than criminal law. In general violation is just fine and they are handled by administrative law courts. Part of what makes them so different is they do not fall under the justice department they are contained within whichever agency has jurisdiction over that area of regulation. They’ve been affirmed to be functionally the same as federal courts, but can only sanction the guilty party in the exact manner the regulation says. Otherwise when the case is concluded and a party is found guilty is then referred to a federal court for sanctions.
Which is it, up to 15% or up to 10% ethanol?
It’s 10% in the winter and 15% in the summer (at least that’s the legal limit), although I think that’s changing. So I guess they just said what the hell and put on both stickers?
I think there might be two options to the right (yellow stickers) indicating eg 95E15 and 98E10
Fuck you if you own a motorcycle, I guess.
My RV200’s tank only holds 1.7 gallons, and my CH50 will only take one. I guess I’m meant to just dispense the remaining three gallons onto the ground, then…?
Ethanol fucks up the rubber in my 1980s Suzuki carburetor. I wish I could find an alternative.
I feel you. E10 is the lowest content we can get anywhere around me. I have to ride about 90 miles to get to the nearest station with non-ethanol fuel.
There is Sta-Bil 360 which allegedly mitigates the effects of ethanol at least in storage. I always use it in my bikes overwinter, and I haven’t had any issues… yet.
Several stations around me have removed their mid grade option to sell E85 in that pump slot instead. You can have E10 regular, E10 premium, E85, or fuck off. I have seen a few shiny new stations on the interstate that only offer E15, which seems to happen most often out in corn country. I get that there’s only so much oil in the ground, but you’re right – there has to be a better way. It’s just probably not as cheap…
Yeah and which one of those are you putting ethanol in?
It either violates federal law or it doesn’t. May is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Not to mention there are signs for both up to 10% and up to 15%…
If the purpose of the warning is to make sure people get the blend they want then just say that.
This… Why is this sign ambiguous? To avoid improper fuel blends, dispense 4 gallons minimum, federal law.
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archaic and inflexible.
No, it’s working precisely as intended. There are so many layers of byzantine laws and ordinances in the US on multiple levels – federal, state, county, municipal – that anyone who really wants to is guaranteed to be able to find something to harass and/or arrest you for, no matter what. Probable cause can be rendered meaningless by making a humongous array of trivial things technically illegal.
Does your window tint meet the specific requirements for this county? Is your stereo 0.01dB louder than our municipal maximum? Are your license plate and registration sticker acceptably clean? Do your tires have the correct tread depth? Do you have a radar detector installed? Do you have an air freshener hanging from your rearview? Are you carrying your written prescription around with your pills? Is your pocketknife blade too long? Do your cigarettes have the wrong state’s tax stamp on them? Did you remember to sign the back of your registration card? Whoopsie doodle, this state passed a law mandating minimum headlight height from the road, too bad your car left the factory out of compliance. Could you step out of the vehicle for me, sir?
Etc., etc., etc.
While I agree with your premise, I don’t like that your list is what came to mind when you thought of unnecessary laws. Those are some of the best laws we have. It sucks being hypersensory and trying to live a real life, and literally 25% of the population is. With hyposensory people (another 25% of the population) just acting like we are all whiners for experiencing every sense as much as 4x as strongly as they do. “No one could possibly be that annoyed by something that barely affects me, they are just too sensitive”. Well, yes. Technically that is the problem, but our sensitivity is physical and not by choice.
You wanna tell me how you know when you’ve got damage caused by this and can prove a specific gas station has anything to do with it? It’s really easy for a gas station to just monitor it’s pumps.
Consider the practicality.
how do they enforce that? seems undoable
I’ve seen a cop show in the UK, they had a long stick they put down your fuel filler and it captured a tiny amount, they pull it out and can tell by colour. Normal fuel is clear/yellowy and marked is usually red.
I think it has to do with how it’s dispensed. If the person before you bought regular fuel, the hose still might have residual fuel from the other kind, meaning you could end up with a different ethanol level than expected. That’s a fire hazard. 4 gallons is probably overkill but better safe than sorry.
Edit: basically, if you accidentally get half a gallon of 10% ethanol fuel and half a gallon of 15% ethanol fuel, you actually have 12.5%.
Has that always been the law and I just never noticed a sticker like that before?
Not sure how long it’s been a law but not a ton of places sell E15. I only ever see it on road trips personally.
How would this be enforced?
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So you’re American? I can’t think of any good reason why that might be
Probably because they were born in America. They have family there, friends, job located there, etc
It’s a joke
Could be that they’re trying to restrict putting E15 in small, portable gas cans?
That would be one explanation! If that’s what you want to prevent I’d just be writing that down tho, and you could always just put the remaining two gallons in your car
