Disclaimer: I am not trolling, I am an autistic person who doesn’t understand so many social nuances. Also I am from New Hampshire (97% white), so I just don’t have any close African-American friends that I am willing to risk asking such a loaded question.
Watermelon and chicken were two of the ways that black people started supporting themselves after being freed from slavery. They were agricultural products they could raise with very little investment and start building wealth from essentially nothing. Racists, not wanting them to prosper, mocked them for their preference for these things, but it’s important to note that the mockery didn’t stop them from supporting themselves with the foods they were able to produce. To this day black people enjoy these foods, and there’s nothing wrong with them enjoying the foods. If you’re with your black family, and you want to celebrate your own heritage, this isn’t actually a bad way to do it.
However.
When a corporation, particularly a corporation run and staffed by white people, makes a choice to celebrate a significant black cultural date by presenting people with foods that white people used to mock black people, it reads as mockery. (This is especially true in North Carolina, a place where racism is rampant and open.) At best, this is tone deaf; someone along the way should have said “hey, do you think any black people will feel like you’re doing this as a racist attack?” And if any one of them had answered “yes” to that question, they wouldn’t have done it. It made it through the pipeline to being something they actually did because nobody in the decision chain cares about the racist overtones of what they were doing.
If you’re going to do anything to celebrate black history or black culture, failing to ask any black people what they think about it is racism. Cultural sensitivity would have meant getting some input from a few black folks about how they think it should be celebrated–and, had they done that, they would have avoided this mess.
And, just in case anyone was wondering, the VP in charge of this situation is white.
Thank you! TIL Black people were mocked for liking those foods. They are the best, racists are only hurting themselves if they don’t eat it!
Ah, but here’s the real hypocrisy: they absolutely do eat those foods. Southerners of any color love fried chicken and watermelon. That doesn’t stop them from being racist about it. Racism doesn’t have to make sense.
Every time this comes up I gotta say, who the fuck doesn’t like fried chicken and watermelon?! It’s like making fun of someone for liking sunshine and the ability to breathe. Not that I needed another reason to point at racists and call them a bunch of fucked up morons, but goddamn they are bunch of fucked up morons.
Not that I needed another reason to point at racists and call them a bunch of fucked up morons, but goddamn they are bunch of fucked up morons.
People are literally killing people who’s ancestors adapted to more exposure to direct sunlight than theirs did. I can’t not see it in just that simple way and think “what the actual fuck is wrong with people?” You can’t even say it’s a culture thing they don’t like, because they don’t actually know the people they cast hate at other than the color of their skin. It’s absolute insanity.
I like watermelon for the first 1.2 seconds where it actually has flavor. Though I did see a picture floating around Lemmy here that made me think the watermelons I’ve had that gave me that opinion were probably a quantity vs quality issue.
Thats why you just gotta keep eating more. More flavor! Also yes some definitely have more flavor than others, I’m no good at picking them but if you cut it open and it’s deep red you’re probably in for a good tome.
It’s like making fun of someone for liking sunshine
At the risk of completely derailing the conversation, I’ve met a lot of people in the PNW who don’t like warm weather or sunshine. When summer rolls around they start complaining about it being too sunny and want the grey skies back. Frickin weirdos!
That’s me! The life giving sun can fuck off behind the clouds!
I really tried to pick two things that couldn’t be argued with so now I’m just waiting for someone to tell me they don’t like breathing either.
Haha!
PNW weirdo here. I like things to be green and alive, I like my skin unburned, and I like being able to poke around tide pools on a lonely beach. Clouds and rain help all of that.
It’s currently sunny and about 77°F, which is about as warm as I want it unless I’m going swimming. Late summer when it approaches 100° is miserable, but for now the bright weather is fine and good for the plants.
It’s so beautiful today! I’m wearing shorts and flip flops for the first time in months, and I started working on my bike again now that we may have a period without rain for a while.
I’m too pale AF to have a loving relationship with the sun. I’ve been burned too many times. I always use protection, but last weekend the sunscreen failed me :(
I mean, climate change being what it is, I’m literally brainstorming ways to inject artificial rain clouds into the sky.
My current idea is giant poles all over the city. They have blades at the top. They start rotating like a helicopter, but not designed to takeoff. Instead, it sprays cool mist above the blades so the cool mist gets swirled around in the hot air, that makes the whole city artificially humid. Eventually this should all rise up, and create rain clouds! Which then cool down the entire city.
Edit: Also, I have zero idea if this conceptually is even feasible.
Haha. Dubai had success with cloud seeding recently. But they forgot that they’re a desert without adequate drainage or runoff, and flooded their whole city.
Well, shit! Pass that technology over here! We could test it in Nevada, on a daily basis for 10 years. Maybe raining over a section of desert that has literally zero life can turn it into a livable habitat. It could be a test. With the added benefit of cooling a portion of the earth as they do it.
Dave Chapelle had a whole bit about this before he decided to double (and triple, and quadruple) down on transphobia. He makes the very salient point that these things are delicious.
I dont know a single person who has said they hated fried chicken or watermelon. Watermelon isn’t my favorite because it’s never as sweet as I think it is going to be but I will never turn a cold slice down.
I hate watermelon. Even the best, most ripe watermelon sucks. But usually they’re mealy and watery in flavor. They also remind me of the taste of cucumbers, which I hate more, unless they’re pickled.
I heard white racists make fun of black people for that a lot when I was younger. But we ate it when I was a kid because we were poor and that was cheap and delicious.
looks at username
Well…yeah. You’re going to run into racists in TEXAS!!! Jesus! That’s the same place that seceded from Mexico to defend their ability to have slaves. Then seceded from the usa to defend their ability to have slaves. Then they complain about building a wall to keep Mexicans out.
If Florida didn’t exist, Texas would be the king of racism in America.
Texas is racist, Florida is racist, but ain’t neither of them got shit on Alabama and Mississippi. Texas and Florida are just louder.
Fried chicken and watermelon is still used to mock black people as well. There were racist memes about Obama eating fried chicken and watermelon.
I was a child of the 90s when I feel this humor was more prevalent. Until now, I always thought of it as a common stereotype, like white guys in khakis, old white women and wine, or country folk and cheap beer. Something that does poke fun of a group, but generally in a light way. Now I know there’s a more significant back story. I figured it was just culturally something that developed in black communities.
Ok, everything you just said is true, and a great answer if the question is “Why is chicken and watermellon a bad food to be assosiated with February/Juneteenth?”.
However, the question is “Why is it different from corned beef on St. Patricks day?” And everything you just said is ALSO true about how Americans treated the Irish upon their mass immigration to America during the 1800s. They were mocked for corned beef, potatoes, and alcohol. The Irish were assosiated with those items in Ireland for the same reasons black people were assosiated with chicken, and watermellons. It was cheap, and it fed a poor mans family. The non-poor (whites) mocked them for being poor.
So…you gave a great answer, but not for this exact question. And yes, I know the original question didn’t mention potatoes or alcohol, but it also applies for the same reasons.
I’m not saying what the company did was right, I’m saying those same racist stigmas for the holiday it was compared to is equally wrong.
I think a better answer is “It’s not so different. Both are wrong.”
I mean, OP replied to my answer and apparently liked it, so I think I got him squared. But here’s a real response:
When the concept of whiteness was invented (yes, invented) it didn’t originally include Irish people, and they did endure abuse and marginalization comparable to what black people have endured and continued to endure. Irish people were worked as near slaves, so they even have a lot of that in common. As you say, I think that if you were Irish in America in the early 19th century, people who already belonged to the White club would have mocked you for your corned beef. We still make fun of Irish people for these things.
But there is a difference. Irish people in modern times got access to whiteness. They were accepted as part of the in-group and no longer marginalized. When this happened, and it took decades to gradually go this direction, the mockery didn’t disappear but, if you were Irish (and, in fact, I am) it would have started to feel less like someone who means you harm, and more as friendly teasing, precisely because you have access to the same power as the Germans and the British and so on who already belonged to the club.
Black people don’t have that. Black people are still very much marginalized, still the victims of racism and violence and institutional exclusion. So piling the food-based racism on top of that, is going to feel a lot more painful.
It’s one thing to be mocked; but to be mocked by someone else who is punching down is much worse.
An interesting aside that you probably know: corned beef and cabbage is a distinctly Irish-American tradition. The Irish were economically forced to raise cattle for corned beef for British folks. Despite raising and curing the beef, they could not afford it and subsisted on potatoes. Britain’s wealth and insatiable appetite for corned beef was so immense that those who made it could not afford the price. On the other hand, the reliance on potatoes for subsistence during this period as well as its outcome is well known.
Who’s the company involved in this? I’m not in the US so I’ve probably missed a lot of context here.
Spectrum. I think they’re mainly an ISP, cable TV, stuff like that. We don’t have them around here but I understand them to be a fairly big company.
This one doesn’t fall on the whole company, mainly just this one call center, but still, Spectrum corporate should get interested in how this happened.
Ah okay. Thank you!
I am in the US and this is the first I’ve heard of it. I thought it was just a hypothetical question until I started reading the comments.
It’s a real tell that they had no black person high enough in management to raise this concern.
In this day and age, either diversify or sign a contract with a “cultural awareness” agency to run your ideas by first.
Fried chicken has historically been used to mock black culture, not celebrate it
Might be more life to serving just potatoes on St Pats from that perspective.
Why?
wikipedia has fairly fleshed out histories:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermelon_stereotype https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fried_chicken_stereotype
I’d argue it depends on who is serving it and what their intentions are. I don’t think it’s necessarily bad. I went to a local Juneteenth celebration and the food stands were serving some fried chicken, collard greens, jollof rice, etc.
Totally agree about intention. Food is not inherently racist it’s all about intent.
Probably a lot of black families actually do have fried chicken, barbeque and cookouts are apparently a big part of the festivities traditionally.
If you find yourself becoming such good friends with a black person that they actually invite you to one of these cookouts, don’t bring fried chicken, or watermelons, or most of the stereotypical “black” foods, they’re considered black people food because the post civil war south fostered an environment of chronic black poverty on purpose that led to black families tending towards raising cheaper animals and growing cheaper crops for their own consumption.
So a white guy cracking watermelon or fried chicken jokes or bringing that kind of stuff to a black celebration comes across less as trying to share in the culture and more as rubbing salt in a, in many ways still open, wound.
As for what you should bring, bro just ask. Just making it known ya want to bring something for folks to enjoy will be good and appreciated, and if they decide they’d like to take you up on that, they’ll either give you a recipe off their list of stuff they’ve decided they want or ask what you think you can handle making and take your word on that if anything you feel confident making sounds good. Who knows, maybe that year will go down as the year that corned beef ya mentioned becomes a staple of the annual cookout!
What if they ask him to bring watermelon and chicken to the cookout? ;-)
Make sure you can go wide eyed enough that they start laughing if they were just razzing you
This question reminds me of when that school in NY got in trouble for serving “stereotype food” for black history month.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/06/us/aramark-black-history-month-menu-school-reaj/index.html
I have the same confusion as you do, OP. It appears to be a liked dish by all accounts across many races, upbringings, or religions. Unless you have dietary restrictions like Vegan or something.
I’m assuming this is one of the things that racists ruined. Like yeah people like fried chicken, but racist made it a “bad thing.” It’s kind of like now, you got to look out for the number 88, vikings, the okay sign, the gadsden flag, or punisher flag. It’s not that mentioning fried chicken is necessary bad, but people are on edge because Nazi’s are back. 1 of the dog whistles might be a coincidence, but you start collecting them and I start side eyeing my co-workers more.
Those damn dog whistles need to end, so we can all enjoy fried chicken and watermelon on Juneteenth.
This is not targeted at you nor OP.
The answer for both you and OP is tied to your last sentence
so we can all enjoy fried chicken and watermelon on Juneteenth.
Why fried chicken and watermelon and why on Juneteenth? Do you eat fried chicken and watermelon as part of your normal rotation? (Hopefully, ‘yes’ because both are delicious and everyone should be afforded the opportunity to indulge)
The issue is that very evidently in both OP’s case and the one you linked that someone was given the prompts “food for celebration” and “celebration of African Americans”, generated “African American party foods”, and churned out a menu reinforcing racist stereotypes. The inquiry is “hey, where is your head at?”
I mean I get that. I just don’t personally see it as that. I do eat fried chicken and watermelon (and other soul food like greens, sweet potatoes, etc). I don’t eat them as much as I want because the places around me don’t make good soul food anymore. The quality is down in my opinion.
I mentioned the day because all holiday celebrations include food. I also mentioned in my opinion, that everyone loves that type of food. I just didn’t think of it as “black food” but I know it is stereotypically a trope. I think this understanding of other people’s racist tropes and my love of celebrating with loved ones and good food is where I (and assuming OP) is coming from.
Is the main issue the intent? If you eat corned beef for St Paddy’s or carne asada for Cinco de Mayo is that an issue? If we ask black people what we should eat for Black History Month or Juneteenth and they agreed that soul food is good then is it okay? Should we just stick to burgers and dogs like it’s the 4th of July?
I feel we can never really have these conversations (IRL) because people assume what the other person means when they are trying to understand the reason behind it.
All that to say, we have to be extra vigilant because racists are everywhere pushing their agenda, so I understand that this trope could be insulting to some. I’ve also met black people that don’t give it a second thought because the food is good and they were hungry.
Don’t forget red hats, no more red hats without automatic suspicion… If they have white block text, amplify suspicion by 10,000
Sorry to repost my reply from another thread, I hate to spam up the post but I feel like every American should know about the Minstrel Show
It wasn’t just a form of comedy, it was an entire entertainment industry all on its own, like movie theaters or concerts today. It eventually got replaced by/morphed into Vaudeville (still with blackface/black clowns) which was then replaced by cinema.
For a good 50-100 years, a major form of entertainment (not just in the South btw) was pretty much just: “haha black people are such stupid clowns! Look, that one thinks he’s fancy! That one’s a no-good drunk! Oh look, that one’s trying to give a speech!” It was pretty formulaic with standard props, just like you’d expect to see at a clown show. So fried chicken and watermelon were standard props like “tiny car full of clowns”, oversized shoes, a flower pot for a hat, a flower that squirts water, etc. For that reason they carry a very unpleasant legacy that reminds people of an insult to injury that still hasn’t been made right, in my opinion.
The format was pretty similar to the show Hee-Haw actually, kind of a fun variety show, just wildly racist and it’s obviously pretty fucked up to pick on literal slaves. Real bitch move there.
So people who know something about history are pretty salty about that and forms of the Minstrel Show were still happening here and there recently enough that people alive today remember seeing them.
Irish people caught some shit, but not like that. I’m not sure if Irish-American racism like that happened recently enough that living people remember it, or that it was ever to the extent that it formed an entire entertainment industry.
I suppose I’m in a similar situation with ppl in Vermont you don’t really get to socialize with people and the few people you come across are never black. Infact I recall actually learning about fried chicken and watermelon being racist from the backlash from the school you just mentioned.
Fried chicken should be served EVERY day.
The history of forcing slaves into limited food choices, and then caricaturing an entire race based on people adapting to those arbitrary forced limits…there are alot of layers of historical racism in play that could make doing this in a way that highlights those foods would probably play into that racism. Chicken and watermelon aren’t “black” foods, they were common staples of Southern slaves that had limited choices.
That said, those stereotypes are stupid, those foods are delicious to people of all races, so if those foods are served as a broader celebration or feast and its just part of the day without any emphasis or indicators of meeting (i.e., chicken and fruit are common foods for celebration so why not have them), I don’t think anyone would care.
Others have given you solid answers on why the chicken and watermelon thing was really stupid so I’ll try to answer from the Irish perspective on the second part of your question:
You can serve me corned beef and cabbage on St. Patrick’s day as long as you’re not being a dick about it. I’d probably consider it a nice effort actually if I happened to be abroad on the day.
My dad used to love corned beef, cabbage and potatoes with parsley sauce. It’s a grand meal but not my thing.
If you were a unionist who served it to me in a leprechaun outfit I’d be inclined to tell you where to go though.
Edit: I hope this answers your question. It’s a good question and the answer is nuanced so if I can offer you more perspective let me know, I’d be happy to help.
Note: Unionist is not refering to labor unions.
😂
Thank you, this helped a lot!
I think it’s not really a holiday for sharing culture. I don’t know, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. Adopting black traditions is a touchy topic in the US. Some encourage it, and others decry it as appropriation. Considering that its a holiday commemorating the end of owning black people, I can see how ‘appropriating’ a tradition on that day might be found distasteful.
That said I personally think the concept or cultural appropriation is nonsense. You do not own your culture. That is for everyone. What you own is your own experiences. Those are yours and no one else’s.
I think that is especially true in the United States where sharing cultures is so central to the nation’s identity. I think it really comes down to intent. As long as you aren’t doing something in a mocking or condescending way, I don’t think any reasonable person would be offended.
I know this is a little different due to the power dynamic (America being a powerful country) but people around the world love wearing random American stuff like baseball jerseys or whatever. Saw a lot of it in Europe. Probably theres no profound reason behind it, they just like the style. I think it’s cool, I’m not mad that they don’t really know who the Texas Rangers are or whatever.
I gotta say, I genuinely love this issue.
Like I’m a left leaning generic progressive white guy with a degree that includes a Sociology minor. This shit is so fascinating to me.
I don’t know many black people, personally. Maybe 10 humans I know (like… Might send a social media message to because we are casual acquaintances) are black. I live in a rural area. Two are vegan, but the rest do indeed love fried chicken. We joke, I’veasked. I mean fuck, So do I. What meat eater doesn’t? It’s such a bizarre stereotype from the start. I believe I’ve heard it has to do with slaves being given the wings and appendages of chicken? But I don’t know the veracity of that. Seems plausible?
Anyways, this.
Dated a lovely black woman back in my late 20s, she took me to meet her family like a month in, they were all super sweet. Dinner was fried chicken, hominy, mustard and collard greens, slaw and Mac n cheese, her grandmas fried chicken made me forget I ever cared about my grandmas fried chicken. Who the fuck doesn’t love fried chicken? Okay sure, vegans, but other than that?
And seriously I get the whole stereotype being a deep seated bunch of white people fuckery, but like, fuck that, let’s eat.
My guess is that if they had got a local Soul Food place to cater a whole spread, and the fried chicken and watermelon was part of the rest of the stuff you just mentioned, it would have gone over better. (I bet Charlotte has a bunch of places that would have done that for them). Maybe they could even have done some research and provided the context I am just learning now, in this thread.
But I think this was planned by committee, and that committee planned it all in a half hour so they could break for lunch earlier. So they got a bunch of buckets of chicken (I hope they weren’t from KFC), and someone went to Publix and bought a bunch of watermelon to cut up, and they called it all good. And that committee had nobody on it that pointed out how bad this would look without better planning. (In other words, no black folks…)
This is my favorite bit on that subject:
I’m a white man from Ukraine migrated to America in 1989.
I love fried chicken, I live in the south of America the deep South and man oh man do we have good fried chicken!
Fried chicken is a universally loved dish and is only stereotyped by the most ignorant of people!
Not only should fried chicken be served for Juneteenth it should be served on every holiday as well!
You’re asking the difference between culture and race. Irish isn’t a race. Therefore it’s not racist to say Irish people eat corned beef.
Fried chicken however is not culturally eaten by black people and that doesn’t even begin to touch on the nuances of slavery that are involved in the origins of soul food.
Long story short you can’t apply stereotypes to races. That is by definition racist.
Irish isn’t a race
Well, not any more, anyways.
The Irish, for example, are no longer systematically persecuted in the USA en masse.
Fried chicken and watermelon is a meal imposed by oppressors, and used to dehumanize a people.
Removed by mod
not sure why you are getting downvoted.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fried_chicken_stereotype https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermelon_stereotype
such stereotypes absolutely exist to dehumanize. the other comment about red foods and juneteenth, while not factually false, fully misses the point of OPs question to an embarrassing degree.
edit: i guess to nitpick rather than “a meal imposed by oppressors” you should have said “two foods associated with stereotypes imposed by oppressors.” just to be fair.
The way I see it isn’t that stereotypes are inherently awful, it’s that they have various levels of impact. Racism against African Americans is considered more heavily because they have such a long history of oppression that not many other groups have had. Most other groups didn’t meet fierce resistance to obtaining basic rights for as long as they did
