You could probably make a poptarts are sandwiches alignment style thing out of this.
Basically, any video game with an explicit goal, or set of goals is just a puzzle game with extra steps.
What buttons do you push, when do you push them, what does this accomplish, how does that lead you to your end goal, etc.
You could even argue that multiplayer tactics constitute a puzzle, a more social puzzle.
Yes, this is reductive, but this is a dumb showerthoughts post.
Any first-person-shooter is technically a point and click game.
Going to submit my probably-not-a-puzzle-game-game: rhythm games. The game tells you exactly what to press and when you’re supposed to press it, it’s just up to you to actually press the buttons. See: DDR, Rhythm Doctor.
Note that there are rhythm games that have more decision making like crypt of the necrodancer (rhythm roguelike)
Wow, so the “x” on screen means I have to press the “x” on my controler while it’s highlighted!?
Damn, thanks for spoiling that puzzle!
I will grant you that, I agree.
If there is no thought required to determine the difference between a correct and incorrect choice, if its purely just ‘do this’ and the only difficulty is in execution, then yes I would agree this is not a puzzle.
Also, mobile idle games like clash of clans or simcity. Maybe some tactics like “I’ll build this now so I can do that tomorrow” but that’s not a puzzle, that is just choices.
I mean, technically, I guess (insert Futurama technical correct meme), but with that defintion everything is a puzzle.
I just breathed in, what do I do next? I can’t inhale more air. I have to think fast! Maybe if I breath out, I can then breath in again… It worked! Amazing!
A very simple puzzle which our brains and bodies usually perform automatically, yet there are quite a number of situations and conditions that make breathing significantly more difficult, or where precise breathing or certain ways of breathing are skills that require mastery.
Swimming, diving, circular breathing for wind instruments, controlling your breathing while shooting, trying to calm yourself down from a panic attack, etc etc.
It’s not reductive, it’s misrepresentative. A puzzle game is only a puzzle game as long as coming up with the solution is the main task. There are more than enough games where coming up with the right solution is not difficult, but performing it is.
Also the name puzzle game implies that there are designed puzzles. Any game where you have to make decisions in generated situations aren’t puzzle games. For example if you take a specific chess situation and ask which move would lead to check mate in x moves then that’s a chess puzzle. That doesn’t make the game of chess itself a puzzle.
By your definition, Tetris is not a puzzle game.
Its generated and execution difficulty is a major factor.
According to his interpretation of the genre it would be an action-strategy game which arguably fits tetris better. Your underlying point implies that all strategy games are puzzle games which this guy doesn’t agree with I think.
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Speaking of chess, you might be able to argue that some old RTS games are puzzle games when playing campaign, such as the first Command & Conquer. You often have very limited resources, the AI will do specific things at specific times or with specific triggers, and you’re often given specific constraints, like a time limit or keeping a specific thing alive. In this case, though, it’s mostly because the AI is so primitive that almost every action is scripted in advance for that specific map.
Okay, but pop-tarts are raviolis, not sandwiches. That doesn’t even make sense. What kind of sandwich is enclosed on all sides?
A pop-tart
A Snackmaster sandwich.
Doesn’t that just apply to life in general?
Ok, so games that revolve around superhuman perfect timing are kinda pushing the idea of being a puzzle game. What about gambling games, where it’s all about the RNG instead? All you do is pull the lever and hope for the best.
What game involves super human perfect timing that does not include some other kind of puzzle to be solved?
Fighting games? Micro Heavy RTS or MOBAs? Bullet Hell Shooters?
All of these have strategy and can thus be reduced to puzzles.
I suppose if a game was purely just, click button as fast as you can after something happens, then ok, you got me, but add even one more element, and technically this is an extremely simple puzzle, albeit brutally unforgiving in terms of getting your human body to solve the puzzle.
Is there something different you have in mind?
EDIT: Alkheemist answered this later, with rhythm games (that have no elements of strategy ie, GuitarHero is not a puzzle but NecroDancer still is). I agree those are not puzzles. Skipped my mind as I have not played one in a very long time.
I would say you also have got me on a pure RNG slot game. Theres no gameplay, theres no puzzle, theres no strategy.
At least, within the game itself. If youre going to somehow exploit or hack or something, arguably thats now a real world puzzle of how to do it and not go to jail, but excepting that… yeah, there are lots of online ‘games’ with literally no puzzle element, just do thing and then random output happens, with a bunch of flashy graphics that have 0 bearing on what the outcome will be, whether its a digitized horse race or slots or whatever.
I would argue those are not really games though.
The player cannot make any choice that is more or less likely to achieve the goal, thus its the illusion of a game. No meaningful choices.
What’s the name of that mobile game where you tap to shoot an arrow at the exact perfect time so that it lands on the right spot on a spinning circle? Well, that’s the game where I fail to see any strategy. It’s all about perfect timing and tolerating the anger boiling inside your head.
Oh, and there’s this other almost equally infuriating mobile game that I haven’t yet deleted for some strange reason. It’s called Stack, and your goal is to build the tallest stack possible by having supernatural timing abilities in your fingers. Oh, and what about Flappy Bird or the dinosaur game built into Google Chrome? Basically the same idea, but you don’t have a lot of time to prepare for what’s coming. You just need to have lightning fast reaction time and perfect timing. Now that I think of it, there are lots of games where timing takes the center stage.
I would argue those are not really games though.
You were doing well until the No Real Scotsman fallacy.
You think that pushing a button that generates a purely random outcome is a game?
To me, those are neither games nor puzzles.
There is nothing one can do, in terms of thought or execution, to influence the outcome.
Other than I suppose choosing to play or not play.
To me, a game must include some capacity of the player to influence whether they succeed or fail, within the game itself.
(I didn’t downvote you - it wasn’t me!)
Yeah. I think anything that passes time by giving you dopamine hits qualifies as a game. However, that wasn’t my point. I was saying, you declared a statement, and then when given counter-examples, declare they aren’t really games because they don’t meet your previously declared statement. It’s a logical fallacy.
Also, technically all video games are just really long tech demos.
I’m going to provide a counter-example to disprove. A slot machine is a video game that is not a puzzle since there is no solution.
I agree with “Most video games are puzzle games” though. There are exceptions like Rail Shooter. Button mash only game. Bullet hell games don’t really have a puzzle element since solution is already shown by areas having no bullets in them.
I feel like this statement also hinges on “all video game strategy is a puzzle” people might disagree with.
This reminds me of an exhibiton I once saw called “No Pain, No Game”. The idea being that any sort of game has some failure state, some obstacle to overcome, that’s what makes it a game. So of course I started thinking of counter-examples. Your slot machine idea is a good one, what I eventually came up with is Cookie Clicker. That game is nothing but positive reinforcement. There’s no way to lose progress or mess anything up, any action you take makes you “win more”. Not taking an action also makes you “win more”, just more slowly.
This showerthought is an idea adjacent to that all. Interesting stuff, even though it’s not too deep.
The cookie clicker could still be a puzzle as long as you make it impossible to win without using some power-ups because you’ll die sooner of old age. That’s assuming there is a win condition in it. Other clickers are genuinely not puzzles since they’re infinite and not winnable. Not winnable makes them not solvable so they can’t be a puzzle.
I’m pretty sure cookie clicker has no victory condition, it just goes on and on. At least it was that way last time I played it. Things might have changed since.
There’s some kind of stock market mini game in there now, so you can play and lose at something in the game, but no overall win conditions im aware of.
