Sooo… the working class should own the means of production?
Yes, but let’s try to achieve that without state ownership of the means.
How can the working class own something if the state owns it?
It’s very simple.
Nationalists nationalize.
Socialists socialize.
If one is doing the other it means somebody is lying to you.
That’s just nonsense there’s plenty of reasons certain resources should be nationalized. Why do I care if the company that owns all the clean water is owned by one asshole or a group of them? Certain things in a nation belong to the people of the nation as a whole. Namely the national resources. No one company deserves to own that.
That’s just nonsense
No. It isn’t. If nationalism is your game, fine… but just be honest about it. Don’t confuse it with socialism (unknowingly or otherwise) - the two aren’t compatible in any way whatsoever.
If you’re a nationalist, you believe that all resources should be controlled for the benefit of the people living inside the territory demarcated by imaginary lines drawn on a map - that is a very distinct thing from capitalism, which holds that resources must be privately owned and fuck the people living inside (or outside) said territory.
You have completely and utterly misused the term nationalized and nationalist here and are applying a meaning that they do not have. Nationalists don’t nationalize resources and Industry. You can say it as much as you want but it’s just complete fiction what you’re talking about. The historic link between nationalism and capitalism is so incredibly ingrained and strong that you saying otherwise is simply put unbelievable. This is simply nonsense and drivel that you have created from nothing.
I’m honestly not sure if this is the most intellectually dishonest comment I’ve ever seen or if you’re having some kind of fever dream where the meaning of words are different to you and you’re going to wake up in 2 days and be like oh shit what did I say?
You have completely and utterly misused
Lol! No Clyde - I haven’t. Nationalism is a very simple thing - it’s not my fault you associate nationalism with fascism (which is always just false nationalism) or capitalism (which is perfectly incompatible with the beliefs of anyone who actually fetishizes a given nation state - even fascists like Francisco Franco understood that). The US has spent more resources combating nationalism in the middle-east than socialism - do you think they did that because nationalism is so “compatible” with capitalism?
I hate to be the one to break it to you - but Fidel Castro was far more of a nationalist than Adolf Hitler was. In fact, the majority of the anti-imperialist campaigns waged against colonial power during the (so-called) “Cold War” was nationalist in nature - not socialist.
The historic link between nationalism and capitalism
There are those who will pretend that there are “historic links” between liberalism and democracy, too - even though they are violently incompatible concepts. “Historic links” doesn’t mean anything.
You can call the US “democratic” and the USSR “socialist” all you want - but that does not make any of it reality.
Fidel Castro and Adolf Hitler were both nationalists, Hitler was also fascist. I think you might have a inaccurate definition of nationalism.
Nationalism is more about elevating a certain ethnic group and creating a nation in the process if needed. WW2 Germany was all about elevating Germans at the cost of everyone else. It rose to prominence in 18th century Europe when nations in Europe declared themselves as independent.
Nationalizing is about taking a resource or a company and putting it into the hands of the state for the people.
These are two completely different concepts with a small overlap.
Nationalism is more about elevating a certain ethnic group
No it isn’t - that is so distinct from garden-variety nationalism that we call it ethno-nationalism. There are plenty of nationalist projects that doesn’t have an ethno-nationalist aspect to them - there are plenty of them outside the imperial core in the (so-called) “third-world.” You wanna be the one to tell them they are doing nationalism wrong?
WW2 Germany was all about elevating Germans at the cost of everyone else.
Violently building an alt-fantasy empire has nothing to do with “elevating” a people - that’s imperialism, not nationalism. You can argue that the two concepts may be related - but you can’t argue that nationalism inherently requires genocidal imperialism.
Nationalizing is about taking a resource or a company and putting it into the hands of the state for the people.
In other words… the only possible benefit that nationalism has ever presented as a justification for it’s own existence?
Fancy that.
Here’s a link that with a definition. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
Nationalism is an idea and movement that holds that the nation should be congruent with the state. As a movement, it presupposes the existence and tends to promote the interests of a particular nation, especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining its sovereignty (self-governance) over its perceived homeland to create a nation-state. It holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity, and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power. It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on a combination of shared social characteristics such as culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history, and to promote national unity or solidarity. There are various definitions of a “nation”, which leads to different types of nationalism. The two main divergent forms are ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism.
And here is another one https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization
Nationalization (nationalisation in British English) is the process of transforming privately-owned assets into public assets by bringing them under the public ownership of a national government or state.[1] Nationalization contrasts with privatization and with demutualization. When previously nationalized assets are privatized and subsequently returned to public ownership at a later stage, they are said to have undergone renationalization. Industries often subject to nationalization include telecommunications, electric power, fossil fuels, railways, airlines, iron ore, media, postal services, banks, and water (sometimes called the commanding heights of the economy), and in many jurisdictions such entities have no history of private ownership.
Nationalization may occur with or without financial compensation to the former owners. Nationalization is distinguished from property redistribution in that the government retains control of nationalized property. Some nationalizations take place when a government seizes property acquired illegally. For example, in 1945 the French government seized the car-maker Renault because its owners had collaborated with the 1940–1944 Nazi occupiers of France.[2] In September 2021, Berliners voted to expropriate over 240,000 housing units, many of which were being held unoccupied as investment property.[3][4]
I like the idea of having just a cool government we trust and who do the right thing. Imagine that. Making parks and stuff. But also cool citizens who also sometimes disagree with the government. Like at their core. Without having a big ass conniption every time like the sky is about to fall.
Governance, government and states are all different and nebulous within themselves. You can achieve governance models that better resist the consolidation of power while still operating towards the goal of the collective good. That alone does not denote nationalization, which is a particular form of statehood (often referred to as a sovereign state). Watershed governance is managed across existing levels of international, regional and local governing bodies, often with a high level of success to best ensure sufficient water is available for the communities within.
That seems like an awfully swell nice ideal there, the reality though is where I live and people like me live where local governments just sells your water to private corporations and now you don’t have enough water.
Definitely not saying it works pervasively, lots of jurisdictions work as plutocracies and have vacated any sense of public good. That some jurisdictions suck doesn’t nullify the possibilities of cooperation and public good being the foundations of good governance.
I’d say it does. Because it’s not an aberration. That’s how capitalism works. If a corporation can Corner the market on a natural resource and screw the people over it will. That’s by Design. That’s why I don’t trust any situation in which private ownership can own a natural resource that people rely upon. It will happen every single time.
Simple if you understand the theory and history. The main difference between Communists and anarchists is the involvement of the state.
Main difference between anarchism and everything else is a state
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The problem isn’t usually nationalization but the utter lack of democratic control of what is owned by the state
I’d say that before that your problem is that if a state has the power to nationalize something it also has the power to privatize it again… all it takes is one Reagan or Thatcher. Or hell, an Obama - who essentially nationalized General Motors after the 2008 crash and then handed it all straight back to the capitalists again.
It’s important to consider the conditions in which state ownership was deemed necessary. Countries with a starving and illiterate working class isn’t as capable at a true worker owned economy as one that already has a well fed and educated working class. A true socialist society needs basic infrastructure and fulfillment of the basic needs of its people before it can be properly implemented.
Lenin’s concept of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat was intended to be a temporary system intended on rapid development and growth of the economy. It was more important to try and stop starvation and establish railroads than build worker co-ops. The mistake was when the leaders that came after decided to never cede power back to the working class.
Certainly Lenin and good compatriots has the best of intentions with their vanguard approach to intention. But, as you noted, that concentration of power ultimately corrupted in the hands of a nefarious few. These ideas were not Lenin’s alone and even Marx promoted the idea of a Vanguard long before the Bolshevik revolution, which Bakunin (an early anarchist) was opposed due to the likelihood of the vanguard becoming entrenched within that power. That concentration of power by a class of elite was the mistake. To argue there wasn’t time to educate the masses is to ignore the fallout of that approach. These are important lessons to remember, even should the future approach to revolution be focused on the establishment of worker co-ops. Positions of power and power between cooperatives are likely to remain and we will need systems of control to mediate these types of emergent hierarchies.
I have a new working theory. We reward assholes and no system we can ever hope for will ever overcome the asshole engorgement paradox therefore all systems will always turn to shit.
The mistake was when the leaders that came after decided to never cede power back to the working class.
Unfortunately I see this as a permanent road block because we can’t rid ourselves of the worst kinds of people, they’re just born psychopaths/sociopaths and seek positions of power to exploit :(
No, that would be socialism!!1!!! No socialism in 'Murica!!1!!!1!
I work in an esop. It’s pretty cool in that we own the company in shares based on tenure, it’s not like a union though.
We don’t vote on the CEO or the board, we have third party trustees that manage the esop account.
We aren’t beholden to external shareholders, which is the absolute best part. Line doesn’t go up, it really just affects our retirement accounts, but even then our valuation takes into account stuff like cash on hand and contract stability. So… We have pretty fiscally conservative management, which is a great thing for us.
I work at an ESOP as well. Honestly I’m glad I fell into this. I have a feeling that I may actually be able to retire. If not early. Probably one of my best moves in my career.
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This sounds like a worker cooperative which is a classic socialist concept that could be applied to modern social democrat capitalism.
Since I straddle the line in my political views between Marxism and social democracy I’d like to share an approach.
Mandatory profit sharing and workers always have a certain proportion of the board elected democratically. Simple as that. CEO bonuses should be made illegal and all of those profits should be funneled to the workers. People will be a lot more involved in the corporate governance and it will align the will of the workers with that of the shareholders.
Economists say that in the long run productivity is everything and worker’s having a for-profit voice that will make arguments like “we’re losing our best workers because of low pay” to increase salaries is important. This will make each person higher paid and more productive.
You guys know about Walmart, that one rose to success by profit sharing but capitalism got the better of it and now so many workers both time and money poor because they work there.
I work in consultancy and have a dream of forming a small elite company of consultants, employee owned, just 10 or so people who are shit hot at their jobs.
I would plan for it to always be 10 people, deliberately no growth. Do the job well, take a good wage, have some parties.
It’s when companies look for massive growth and shareholder value that everything starts to go to shit.
In 2024, a crack team of management consultants was assembled to solve the toughest business challenges. These consultants promptly escaped from traditional firms to form their own elite unit. Today, still wanted by companies worldwide, they survive as consultants of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire… The C-Team.
[Cue dramatic music]
That’s brilliant
Also, my colleagues always tell me I’m c-team standard, this must be what they mean!
I’m up for the C++ team!
just 10 or so people who are shit hot at their jobs.
Why would you want ten competent people when Deloite and McKinsey prove you can make way more money with a thousand incompetent people?
What happens when the other 9 want growth?
WTF is a consultant even?
A consultant is just a professional that works on a contract basis rather than employment.
That’s a contractor.
A contractor does physical tasks while a consultant does intangible things… advice, reports, et cetera.
Ooohh, you’re trying to put yourself above them. Got it.
I think this comment says more about you than it does about me. You might want to get that looked at.
Then you vote on it and they take over and it turns into a shit company that started out as a good idea, like so many others.
The only reason for growth is if you want to skim the money earned from other people’s work.
It’s a person who temporarily joins a company, tells everything is wrong, writes that in a piece of paper and moves on to another company.
If their paper happens to say what the CEO thinks then they’re invited to come back a couple years later.
Balance your workload with care. Once you have “enough” work, hopefully you have other firms you can refer unwanted work to. My small business is run by a guy who A) isn’t growing the business and B) says yes to every assignment. He’s burning out, I’m burning out, and one of our best people burned out and quit last month. It’s a nightmare.
I was thinking a kind of get-in-line attitude. We can get to you but not for 6 months, that’s just how it is.
Might work, depends on how loyal your clients are.
This way you just end up with the shit clients that no one else wants.
If you find a client who’s a better fit than 80% of your clients that 80% get’s pushed down the line.
If the original owner can do it better on their own they should go into business for themselves rather than create an LLC, once LLC it should be mutually beneficial, not just there to protect the owners private assets
I mean, I’m a single-member LLC (electrician). I’m not sure what you mean.
In the UK we have the designation of Sole Trader for that. Is there not something similar where you are?
This was my opinion. Any company that wants to go public should be required to restructure as a cooperative. Stay private means you get to be the man running the show. But the benefits the market gives business also means those business usually impact people at a scale that no individual or handful of individuals should be making decisions especially when those decisions are " increase profits at all costs". Cooperatives bring locals to the decision making and helps regulate some choices that are made at the executive level
I guess but it doesn’t really solve many problems. Much more importantly, every company should be held to strict standards by a democratic institution of laws.
For examples:
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Both workers rights and pay rates need to be regulated to a bare minimum, because there will always be cases of some people (or groups of people) who try to abuse others and work around the rules. Example: Uber skirts employee benefits by not having “employees”, large companies have “subsidiary companies”, etc.
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Even if a company of 500 people always look out for themselves and each other, they might still become a detriment to the larger society or hostile towards similar companies.
Having both tight regulatory bodies and strong union/cooperatives are fine, but regulation comes first imo.
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So I get the idea that companies shouldn’t be slaves to shareholders or the whims of a few people, but would the employees owning the company mean they are shouldering financial risk? Like if my company goes bankrupt I just lose my job, I am not responsible for covering their losses.
I think the liability would still be limited. If a company goes bankrupt it’s not like they’re going after shareholders’ personal assets to pay creditors.
They are. It also means that if the company goes under or starts doing poorly, they’ll lose it all.
Imagine if you told people you put half of all your savings into the stock market. “Good job. That can really work for you”
Now imagine telling them you only put it in a single stock, with no diversification, you won’t be able to sell until you’re 59 1/2 years old, amd when you do sell, you have to spread the sale out over 6 years. “Wut?”
Like the article says. This company is a unicorn. Very few companies end up doing so well compared to the ones that start out. Employees that have been there over 15 years have over a million dollars in the stock options account (article claims). That’s of course far from typical of a company structured this way. I’d imagine that if anyone just bought $20,000 of their stock 15 or 20 years ago and left it there until now, they may also have over a million dollars worth by now. You could sell it all whenever you’d like doing it that way.
Lots of ways to do this. But overall the idea isn’t that the only investment you can ever make is in the company you work for. What could happen is some shares are public and the rest are held by employees. Employees would own enough to reserve more power in decision making so that the employees have greater say in direction of the company. It also means private Business can also be private. Just make it so that if any company wants to go public they should be employee owned or similar.
By 2030, you will own nothing and be happy!
The fucking dream
this is the least someone should get for devoting their whole life to a company
Absolutely not and if you think about the implications, you’d come to the same conclusion.
One of the most successful breweries in America is owned by its employees. New Belgium.
They did not crumble and fall apart because of “evil socialism”. They flourished because every single worker had a vested interest in making the business grow.
Executives wonder why their employees are so unmotivated. Give them motivation. Not pizza parties
Employee ownership would save this nation from its spiral towards indentured servitude. 60% of the population currently lives month to month. You’re telling me every single one of them is lazy? Bullshit.
The American dream has been stolen from us, it will take it back one way or another.
You can keep sucking on the nuts of billionaires pretending you will be one of them, I will fight for the working class.
There’s a huge cleft between “This one specific brewery” and “every company” though. And honestly I’m neither on expert on company law nor on socioeconomics and market economics, so I’m not one to ask. Maybe it’d be better if every company was employee owned. Or maybe not. Or maybe it would change fuck all. I can’t know, not my area of expertise.
And this would not be the kind of global decision you’d want to make on a gut feeling, tbh.
With all due respect, one company doesnt proof a thing. Neither do 10 or 100. If it was such a successful business model, there were a lot more.
In the end, most people want to work 9to5, get their salary and not bother with the company anymore than that. Barely anyone would want to partly “own” the company beyond a stock share maybe.
Right just how people don’t want to own houses… Consider that you might be out of touch with the average American
Are you realizing how stupid that statement is or do you need me to explain?
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Okay so apparently a corporation bought them out in 2019. Looks like we are falling one by one corporate interest.
There used to be 100 government contractors know there are 4.
There used to be dozens of Telecom providers, now there are 3
You know how many places I’ve lived where I’ve had a choice of Internet provider? 0 Functionally a monopoly
I’m so close to giving up on this country because of the greed that is tearing it apart from the inside while everyone concerns themselves with talentless celebrities, Donald Trump included
I’m done being complacent. Something has to give
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Of course there are more than four, but an enormously disproportionate amount of our tax dollars go to four of them.
20% goes to Lockheed Martin alone.
General Dynamics swallowed up all of the companies I worked for in the first half of my career.
You probably also think that because there are thousands of small farmers that they actually have any market share.
The big fish are eating the small ones and getting bigger and bigger. This is what happens when you relax antitrust enforcement. Why do you think we keep getting involved in wars we have nothing to do with? These four have raked in billions facilitating the death of our children overseas for decades
Economics and trickle down is working so great right? Republicans would drive us into slavery we gave them the reins. And yes it is political just look at Reagan and his policies and how they have affected us today
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So you only read the one part that you wanted to read?
You’re cool with one company taking 1/5 of the defense tax dollars? That is a fact not an ideology or opinion.
The consolidation of these companies is not an opinion or an ideology it is a fact. Reality
Do you want to argue the points orrr…
Please elaborate. Co ops already exists. And guild models existed for millenia.
Like what?
We found the CEO, guys.
Waitrose a giant supermarket chain (and mid upper class too) in the UK also owned by employees. So no I don’t really.
Or… What if we just stopped working? https://youtu.be/2i0RrGx_GrE
This is the Centerpoint strategy for maintaining the Houston electric grid
So you now need to buy shares first before you can get any job?
RTFA
Every year, those employees get a percentage of their salaries in company stock. During Central States’ worst year, employees earned the equivalent of 6 percent of their pay in stock, during their best they earned 26 percent. Last year, an employee earning $100,000 a year received $26,000 worth of stock in their account. As the company has grown, the value of that stock has averaged 20 percent returns annually, outperforming the stock market.
Ah, so this example is not transferring equity all the way at once.
Usually, in co-operative businesses, the members have to agree to hire someone.
Uh… no. This is exactly how people with that mentality cause companies to find ways to hire less humans and depend more on technologies.
Keep it up, you’re only asking for really bad consequences.
“if we keep talking about freedom, our masters will have even more reason to abuse us!”
Coward.
I’m thinking like a business owner. If my employees are going to demand to own my company, I’m going to fire them and find a way to permanently replace humans.
Coward, more like a realist.
Here’s a thought though, start thinking about creating your own business and stop being a wage slave.
Oh you think your the master and this it’s okay. My bad, your not a coward. Your scum. Literal human rot. Embodiment of greed and selfishness. A person like you has no place holding power over others, and in a just world you would be punished for it. Unfortunately we don’t live in a just world. We live in a world where not only are you rewarded for your greed but to the point you consider it a virtue.
Consider the morality of yourself for a moment.
As for “creating my own business”, you silly billy, I’m going into teaching. Ya know, a selfless job ment to benefit all. I live by my morals, instead of looking for ways to profit off my lack of them.
Keep on rubbing your coins together mr scrooge. See if it warms your grave someday.
You’re going into teaching? haha… Good grief.
This person is going into, “teaching”. Can’t even decipher between, “your” and “you’re”.
You’re a joke. Thanks for further solidifying why public education is complete and utter shit.
I ain’t an English teacher, and I’m actually working on that exact grammatical deficit. My bad I didn’t approach your dumbass with the same rigor I approach an essay or will with my future students. You ain’t exactly worth that time bub.
What do you think corporate shareholders expect of a publicly traded company? Especially when in most industries, labor is their number 1 expense?
i want to own a conglomerate that only owns companies that are owned by their employees
