• Zink@programming.dev
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    6 hours ago

    The details make the headline come across like “humans who refuse to acknowledge mental heath and emotional needs are at a higher risk of suicide” which tracks, especially from my American point of view. What passes for manliness, at least for some who really care about being traditionally “manly,” is essentially an excuse to act like a child and/or cope while in denial of mental illness.

    With some people it seems like a subconscious addiction to self harm. It can be so hard to have compassion for oneself sometimes. At some point you have to give yourself permission to pursue the things that actually make you happy rather than the things you’re supposed to like. (Details vary based on the individual and their local culture)

    • fossilesque@mander.xyzOPM
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      6 hours ago

      At some point you have to give yourself permission to pursue the things that actually make you happy rather than the things you’re supposed to like. (Details vary based on the individual and their local culture)

      A banger line. :)

  • Clinicallydepressedpoochie@lemmy.world
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    23 hours ago

    Yeah, it’s sick. No man should be expected to be able to provide for a small to large family alone, not in this capitalist society that is designed to grind you into nothing. They should be allowed to enjoy hobbies like cooking, art, and home making. They should be allowed to give and recieve affection. The normal gender roles we were taught are trash. They are not meant for everyone but only for some class of people that existed at one point in time and that even then they were unique in the amount of wealth they all shared.

  • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    That tracks, traditional gender roles are overly restrictive and force people to deny their needs.

    Men, nothing wrong with being masculine if you want, but if a woman demands you “man up” for her at the expense of your emotional needs, you’re better off single.

    • bitchkat@lemmy.world
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      13 hours ago

      I think it was the old baseball player Thurmon Munson who said “I never feel more like a man than when I’m wearing a dress”.

    • Wisely@lemm.ee
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      1 day ago

      The manliest thing a man can do is have the confidence and strength to dress and act however they feel like with absolute freedom.

      Many men go about life worried about what people will think of them if they do basic stuff like give their son a hug, eat a salad, drive a car, go to the doctor, clean their butts or wear purple. That’s how men are being raised being bullied into submission out of the fear of being called gay. Who cares anyway?

      • dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works
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        1 day ago

        Wrong.

        The manliest thing a man can do is wrestle a bear, ride a tiger, domesticate a wolf, or eat an entire spoonful of cinnamon.

        THEN I guess it’s whatever thing you said.

  • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.works
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    2 days ago

    There is no non-traditional gender role for a man to assume. A man who does not work and provide, protect and defend is shamed as a deadbeat. His is the only end of the old social contract no one wants to throw away.

    • Comment105@lemm.ee
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      18 hours ago

      Of course they’re shamed as long as people who demand gender role adherence exist. Even if these conservatives were a small minority it would still technically be true that incompletely traditional men would be shamed. Shamed by them.

      It is still true that any man that tries to meet their demands is more likely to commit suicide than s man eho rejects their demands and ignores them.

      I’m sure you’re not wrong in arguing there’s no non-traditional gender role men can fulfill that is clearly defined and understood like the traditional one is. But that’s part of the rejection. You reject the role, you keep living, if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable. Or you just stay, while shutting them out or reducing contact. Often that means not being welcoming to cruel family members, and often it means not listening to your mother and father most of the time.

      • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.works
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        7 hours ago

        But that’s part of the rejection.

        Why! 👏 Are! 👏 We! 👏 Rejecting! 👏 Norms! 👏 In! 👏 The! 👏 First! 👏 Place?!

        You’re talking like a young feminist, one who has had a bank account since she was a teenager and has never actually lived in a world where she isn’t allowed to do anything her brother is. Feminists have or had a reason for rejecting traditional gender norms, but now treat rejection of traditional gender roles as “it’s what we do.” Foregone conclusion.

        Men don’t have a reason to reject traditional gender norms and in fact have reasons not to. Chiefly: Survival. Men are the way they are because they have to be. Men are treated VERY poorly if they show any emotions. Anger is the only one he is sometimes allowed because just what the non-consentual fuck are you going to DO about it? That’s what I thought. It is sometimes possible to make people afraid of you in useful ways, to some young men it is the only source of genuine power they have. Any displays of vulnerability are an immediate invite to attack. People love kicking a man when he’s down. You can probably count any overt displays of joy or contentedness; people love ruining a man’s day. So you learn to swallow it all. If you can still walk, you’re fine. According to them, according to you, according to all. That’s the end of it.

        if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable.

        Great plan there! Abandon every survival tactic you’ve ever known and if any of the few actual allies in your life bitch about it abandon them too. Wander out into the world disarmed and entirely alone for…some fucking reason you’ve yet to elaborate upon.

        “Traditional men commit suicide, weren’t you listening?” Causation or correlation? Does the act of being a manly man make one suicidal, or is it the growing expectation from society to continue to be more and more productive while pay stagnates, costs skyrocket, social contracts are broken and support structures are torn down all systematically and seemingly out of pure spite. So he either burns the village to feel its warmth or just pops his own cork.

        ======

        I’ll point out one other thing: when a gay man comes out of the closet, when an atheist speaks up, when a woman goes to work, when an OK Go fan takes his headphones off, the thing they all have in common is “This is who I truly am, and that’s what I’m going to be now.” That’s not what’s happening among men. The energy you’re bringing here is “have you tried…not being trans?”

    • Knoxvomica@lemmy.ca
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      2 days ago

      Yeah and any woman who doesn’t cook, clean and pop out children is shamed as selfish. Hmm wait, that’s the definition of traditional gender roles and the topic of the article / study, interesting. Guess there’s no alternatives to that for women either. It’s not like a man can’t just be themselves and content with that.

            • exasperation@lemm.ee
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              1 day ago

              There are, like, literally billions of men who don’t fit this archetype you’re describing. Many of them are beloved and idolized by society. Some are artists, musicians, dancers, writers. Lots are stoners or slackers. Some are clergy or philosophers or historians, and not always drawing steady income. And they can be surrounded by loved ones.

              Go be yourself and stop caring about what some narrow slice of society expects.

              And this study, that this article is about, specifically shows that believing this nonsense is correlated with suicide. That’s why it’s actually dangerous to try to convince people of this falsehood.

              • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.works
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                1 day ago

                There are fewer than 4 billion men currently alive. And all of those liberal arts majors you just listed? Yeah they’re shamed as losers if their work doesn’t pay. Women don’t stay with the aspiring musician who refuses to get a day job so he can focus on his music but can never seem to land a gig. People idolize SUCCESSFUL artists, musicians, dancers, writers etc. We jail stoners especially if they aren’t white. What are YOU smoking?

                • exasperation@lemm.ee
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                  1 day ago

                  There are fewer than 4 billion men currently alive.

                  Yes, and what percentage are everything that you expect a man to be? There are plenty of men who are smart but not protective, hard working but not high earning, etc.

                  If your whole definition of a successful man is based on whether a woman will stay with them long term, then first, I’d point out that’s a stupid definition, and second, even if we were to use that definitions there are plenty of ways that marriages fall apart. A man who doesn’t change diapers or won’t clean up after himself is at risk of getting left, no matter how much money he has. Bad communicators are also at risk. Infidelity destroys marriages. So does violence or angry outbursts. These are pretty far removed from what you’re talking about, and men who fall for believing in these rigid gender roles are exactly the type of people who find themselves receiving divorce papers. Plenty of high earning divorced boomer men out there, and there are plenty of happily married men who depend on their wives’ incomes.

                  Feminism since the 1970s has been advocating for financial independence for women so that they can leave someone regardless of how much they earn.

                  And more fundamentally, if the sole sign of manhood is being able to stay in a long relationship, then there are a lot of different ways to achieve that. Being authentic to oneself is an important way to have meaningful relationships with friends and families and spouses, and is an important foundation for a successful marriage, too.

  • solsangraal@lemmy.zip
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    2 days ago

    it’s stressful, spending a lifetime pretending to not be as sensitive as a de-scrotum’d testicle

  • Delphia@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    Yeah because we get in there and GET THE JOB DONE. Women are just “yak yak yak” right guys?

    Guys…?

    guys…?

    AW NO BILLY!?! WHYYYY BILLY WHYYYYY. WHY DIDNT YOU SAY SOMETHING THAT I COULD HEAR OVER THE CONSTANT NEED FOR US TO TALK ABLUT LITERALLY ANYTHING OTHER THAN OUR FEELINGS!?!

    • Gsus4@mander.xyz
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      2 days ago

      Gender roles are pretty dumb even for people happy living in their birth-assigned gender. But I guess you see it twice as bad2,cause you’ve experienced them from both sides now. Fixing yourself doesn’t fix the world, I guess.

  • thefartographer@lemm.ee
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    2 days ago

    a particularly high risk of suicide

    As is expected from the traditional gender role.

    If you’re someone who frequently looks at your gender and then complains “my gender typically suffers from x malady” and it’s not something that’s being forced upon you by external factors (such needing your partner to confirm your personal medical decisions with your doctor concerning future procreation or needing your partner’s permission to file for divorce), then maybe you should consider not being a typical example of your gender.

    I have suicidal ideations and intrusive thoughts because a little voice likes to pop in every so often and tell me that killing myself would be super cool. So I take medicine to quiet the voice and tattle on it to my friends and family whenever it speaks up so they can help me assess if the advice is helpful or not. Is it “manly” to tell people close to me “I’m having suicidal thoughts and I don’t know why”? Nope. But I’d rather be a weirdo than hurt my family.

    Tradmen and tradwives are terrible examples of how to be a human human.

    • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
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      1 day ago

      As a woman whose male friends have made the same choices as you I gotta say, I’ve always preferred spending an evening supporting a friend to spending it mourning him.

      • thefartographer@lemm.ee
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        1 day ago

        Being alive has been one of my most consistent activities in my life

        ETA: I appreciate your input and realizing that most of my friends in my contacts are women is one of my favorite self-evident reasons to reject gender roles. Something about my maladjusted peers blaming onlookers and victims for their maladjustment makes them insufferable to me.

        In other words: guys gotta fix their shit or at least quit blaming women; anything less than that shouldn’t be tolerated by anyone.

      • Cypher@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        It is hilarious to me that you are paraphrasing a famous stoic philosophy, which is famously associated with masculinity, as a response to the ‘as expected’ higher suicide rate of gender role conforming men.

      • otter@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        2 days ago

        By that measure, we’re all supposed to be fuckin’ ecstatic over here in the US right now, then. 🥹

        I mean, everything about the fetid amalgam of mud fuckery that’s festering to boil over… As a nation, the prevailing placating excuse (aka “flagrant lie”) seems to be: we simply did nazi that coming. 🤷🏼‍♂️

  • ZapBeebz_@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    I’d be interested to see what the rates of suicidal ideation are compared between men who do and don’t conform to traditional gender roles. Because there are a lot of contributing factors I can think of off the top of my head, like men who don’t conform as strictly to traditional gender norms are probably more likely to go see a therapist, so they are more likely to see a way out of their situation that doesn’t involve suicide. Also, men who more strictly conform to traditional gender norms probably are more likely to have guns in the home, and (as other studies have shown) men tend to prefer suicide by gun over pills/meds/other methods, so I’m curious if that has an impact as well.

    • Gustephan@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      Anecdotally I am both of those. I grew up in a deep south military family, and I used to have a sidearm that I assigned way more of my identity to than I should have and thought about using on myself more than i ever thought about using in any other way. I didn’t try therapy for the first time until my 30s, after I quit working for the airforce. Telling a man he needed therapy where I used to work was an insult no matter the context, and it was an open secret that you’d get fired if you sought any kind of mental healthcare. (not directly, but some security manager somewhere in the system would revoke your clearances and it would domino from there)

      I’m still amazed I made it through that; it feels like almost every week I’m still blown away by how much different the world can be when it isn’t just a deluge of bigotry and hatred and doomsday weapons. If you can help it, don’t ever fucking make weapons. No matter how much they offer to pay you or pretend you’re a hero. It’s not worth your will to live

  • garibaldi_biscuit@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    Swit-zerland, fac-tors, mas-culine, show-ing, Lu-cas, respons-es, ideo-logies, patriar-chal, inde-pendance?

    Like it doesn’t matter? Good grief!

    • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
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      1 day ago

      Maybe, but if self interest drives a man to solidarity with women to fight against the patriarchy then most of the women I know who actually read feminist theory would agree that it’s a perfectly valid contributing reason.

      • HowManyNimons@lemmy.world
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        13 hours ago

        I think the patriarchy is bad for everyone. There are a lot of dudes who see male feminists as gender traitors, and it’s surprising how many I encounter on Lemmy.

  • Reddfugee42@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    They spend their entire life worrying about what everyone, from their family to complete strangers, will allow or not allow them to do. Can’t imagine the stress. So glad my parents raised me to just be myself, do what I want, and tell anyone who complains to fuck off.