That’s fair, and we cover these points deeper in the thread. The whole point is that the New Deal was a leftist win and an electoral win. The system changed.

To claim it was just socialist activism that gave us the 8 hour workday without acknowledging the role of the shift in government that the activism actually achieved is unproductive. The New Deal wasn’t bought by oligarchs, it was built by workers.

To say there’s no point in trying to change things because the “system is corrupt”, and that supporting major paradigm shifts in the electoral system is a waste of time, is to forget the incredible effort and achievements of those movements. I perhaps overstated my piece there, I’ll acknowledge that. But only because this entire conversation started with “we have no use for honesty in a corrupt system”.

And there is the chance that the system is unfixable. That the core flaws can’t be changed from within. But that still wouldn’t be a good reason to oppose young progressives who are trying. If the system is completely overhauled, young progressives are exactly the type of people we want to be there, with platforms and networks in place.