• Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee
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    7 months ago

    These stories almost never mention fuel used, or fuel cost, in case someone does the math and figures out just how expensive these vehicles are to run.

    • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      Because that’s not the point, hydrogen is the most abundant fuel we have access to. The idea that we shouldn’t be using it is just dumb. It’s what’s more than likely going to fuel our ships to other planets eventually. It’s one of the reasons finding water on planets and moons is a big deal. The thought from the battery crew that we shouldn’t pursue hydrogen is just stupid.

      • vrighter@discuss.tchncs.de
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        7 months ago

        hydrogen is not a fuel. You have to make it, and you always get less energy out than you put into doing so.

        It’s a very inefficient battery. On a vehicle that has no weight concerns.

      • frezik@midwest.social
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        7 months ago

        We did pursue it. Batteries won for common use cases. There may yet be niches where it’s useful, but they’ll be the exception.

        • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          We’re still pursuing it. Batteries do not work for basically anything other than average passenger vehicles in the city or near cities. They do not work in construction, they do not work for heavy equipment, long haulers or even large sea vessels…they do not work for shit in aircraft that carry anything other than itself or tiny payloads…and they really are pointless for any sort of space propulsion. A mixed energy planet is what is needed, not this “batteries are the end all be all” thought so many of you have.

          • frezik@midwest.social
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            7 months ago

            Most of the items you mention are being overtaken by better batteries. Long haul trucking batteries will likely be at cost parity with diesel trucks this year. Big cargo ships should probably go to SMRs. Airplanes no longer look as out of reach as they once appeared.

            Space flight is such a specialized use case. Of course hydrogen will be the predominant fuel there. More because there’s limited options than anything else.

            • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              None of what you have is being done on a large scale because it doesn’t scale. Batteries are good for basically close cities where range isn’t an issue and super chargers are easily accessible. Everywhere else they do not hold up. You will never see a battery operated crane or some farm equipment, it’s just not possible with our current tech. If batteries magically decrease in weight, cost way less, are rechargeable in 5mins from basically and 110/120 outlet then sure, but for everything that isn’t some nice paved road and a semi short trip, it’s not happening.

            • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              Weight is always an issue, who told you it isn’t? And sounds like you know something these engineers don’t.

              • Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee
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                7 months ago

                Some locomotives alone weigh hundreds of tonnes, while weight is an issue, it’s less of an issue than most applications.

                • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  Yep, but you’re suggesting that a train which with a diesel motor that weighs that much, wouldn’t be an issue with batteries. If you are going electric, skip the batteries and go over head tram lines and be done with it.

      • Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee
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        7 months ago

        Yeah, but it’s attached to other molecules, and it’s really hard to separate the stuff.

        Hydrogen is a really shitty and inefficient battery, it would be cheaper, easier, and more efficient to just put batteries on the train.

          • Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee
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            7 months ago

            Overhead lines are almost as expensive as laying the track in the first place though.

            • RubberElectrons@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              Not if you do it simultaneously… cost is higher than just rail, but rains wouldn’t have range limits at all, and would weigh less, meaning less energy used to accelerate (and better emergency brake response).

              I’m very pro EV, but even more a fan of distributed power systems that aren’t chemical based.

                • RubberElectrons@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  We can consider it a relatively straightforward upgrade to the system though. Definitely more expensive than upgrading individual trainsets to h2 or lithium, and nowhere near as quick… But it could be staged, or just the mainlines.

                  Imagine mainlines get electrified so EV or h2 trains use none of their onboard energy, until they start getting onto the unelectrified branches.

                  • Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee
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                    7 months ago

                    That’s exactly what New Zealand is doing with battery electric trains, the plan is for them to run on batteries once they get beyond the overhead line network, to service areas where it’s not worthwhile to have overhead lines.

                    Not with hydrogen trains though, that’s a dead end technology.

        • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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          7 months ago

          Yea totally why large companies are still pursuing it, apparently you and all the EV fanboys know something they don’t.

          Also you saying it’s really hard to do something is like the same people who said we shouldn’t be flying, it’s to hard. That’s not how innovation works. To you eating raw meat and living in caves is where humanity should have stopped apparently, because everything else is hard to do.

    • Zarcher@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      You can lookup the industrial cost of hydrogen in bulk pretty easy. Stop complaining and get some work done.

      • Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee
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        7 months ago

        Can you now? How much does hydrogen in industrial quantities cost? Because, believe me, I’ve tried to find this information.

        I can tell you the pump price in California though.