825,000 chickens per year in the U.S are accidentally boiled alive or drowned before their intended slaughter. https://animalclock.org/ this isn’t prevented because prevention mechanisms cost money, as in they eat into profits.

It’s standard practice for male pigs to have their tails and testicles ripped out without pain relief https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23817808/pig-farm-investigation-feedback-immunity-feces-intestines this link also showcases how people abuse pigs for fun. Objectifying animals you kill is a coping mechanism for humans, engaging in that much killing is unnatural and unhealthy for humans, it also leads to vastly higher rates of domestic violence and crime, as it normalizes violence as a solution.

It’s normal for foxes to have their skin ripped off while they’re alive. Animals have their beaks ripped off so they can’t kill each other in distress, as they go literally insane, abandon normal social hierarchies, and start simply trying to kill each other given the lack of space. http://www.nationearth.com/

I understand ignorance of how horrible the conditions are is a normal part of how humans justify our atrocities. However what always baffles me is people who appear genuinely concerned about animal welfare can be so absurdly uninformed on the practices that they directly support with their purchases, while criticizing practices that you have absolutely no influence over in a place on the other side of the planet.

What’s the cat abuse situation over there? Is it worse than our pig/cow/chicken abuse situation?

Dude, I’m sorry for you honestly. It must be exhausting to force yourself to engage with people online and then get mad and frustrated at them and yourself for arguing.

I engage online because I find value in it, engaging with other views is how I learn. I wasn’t born a vegan socialist, I was born a meat-eating capitalist, and lived that way through my childhood into early adulthood. I found value in engaging online in different ways with different views to assess the true state of the world and grow as a person.

You on the other hand seem miserable and agitated. You don’t seem to be gaining anything from this, so I genuinely don’t understand why you’re doing this. You should talk to a therapist if you don’t already, it’s helpful in a ton of ways ime.

I ask genuine questions, you call me a pissbaby (because you misunderstood me lol) before I say anything to you that could be construed as negative , then you call me whiney and flip out that I told you you could fuck off as an alternative to reading what I said earlier. You’re projecting a lot of negativity outwards and then get incredibly frustrated when anyone says anything remotely negative towards you, like you’re entitled to just be as negative as you want but anyone who reciprocates that negativity is morally failing. It’s wild, and like I said earlier, must be exhausting. This can’t possibly be healthy for you.

This is totally unfair and you misunderstood me. Notice that in response to your assertion to not “double down on veganism” I didn’t even assume you were arguing against veganism. That was obviously a possibility, but the other possibility was you were arguing against the methods by which I was communicating.

So you should’ve started out your comment with “yes”, because I literally exactly nailed what you were doing with my second option.

I preemptively responded to that position, so you can either go back and read that, or fuck off yourself.

I don’t follow, are you making a normative claim against veganism or against the framing of some specific topic as a means of activism?

If it’s the former, feel free to expand. If it’s the latter, I don’t really give a shit. It’s not my responsibility to placate peoples’ delicate rationalizations. I suppose if you had hard evidence on the effectiveness of different forms of engagement, I’d be interested in hearing it, but you don’t. I have convinced a dozenish people IRL to be vegan at this point, and I have no way of knowing how many online.

I don’t have a Facebook, I have watched documentaries on it though. It’s adorable that you think these well-researched documentaries are completely fabricated and staged.

People believe the moon landing was staged, they believe Jan 6th was staged, etc. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that there are people dumb enough to think factory farms are staged, but the only weird thing about that is you can literally go to factory farms and listen to the pigs being gassed to death (which I’ve done).

They don’t let me inside, so maybe it’s just the woke left playing sounds of dying pigs on speakers inside, and pigs aren’t actually squealing for minutes while they’re being gassed slowly to death :)

People in slaughterhouses are cruel to animals. But you don’t care about that, so you don’t actually believe what you’re saying.

What you mean to say is “fuck anyone who is cruel to animals [that I prefer]”. Be honest.

Holy shit, a person who literally doesn’t believe factory farms exist? I’ve actually never met one of you. I’ve heard so many different rationalizations from carnists, but the straight-up belief that factory farms just don’t exist and that all evidence we have of them existing is staged is awesome!

I recently met someone who similarly believed January 6th was entirely staged, and that all evidence we have of that is made-up by woke-leftists with an agenda. It’s absolutely incredible what fantasies humans are capable of spinning up to justify their twisted worldviews.

On the one hand, I’m happy to see fellow vegans all stand up against animal abuse, even though what was done to this wolf wasn’t anywhere near the level of horror carnists inflict on factory farmed animals.

On the other hand, I’m not sure I can get on the bandwagon of inflicting double the suffering these animals experience to the non-vegans that cause it (either by doing it themselves, or paying someone else to do it for them because of their delicate sensibilities).

Firstly because I don’t think a sentient being can experience that much suffering without literally dying to shock (these creatures have their limbs ripped off, skin tore off, sit in their own shit and piss day in and day out, being slowly gassed to death, bleeding out upside down because your throat was slit for minutes etc.) so doubling that and doing it to non-vegans would essentially just be the same as mass-killing non-vegans.

Secondly, I’m not sure that retributive justice is even the path. Like yes, make abuse and paying for others to abuse on your behalf illegal, no doubt. But a lot of carnists would stop if it was illegal. Only the ones that subvert the system and go to the black market to continue their abuse would have to be jailed to force them to stop abuse.

Once they’re not a threat anymore, what’s the value of inflicting more harm?

Like sure fuck Elon, but why do you think FSD is unsafe? They publish the accident rate, it’s lower than the national average.

There are times where it will fuck up, I’ve experienced this. However there are times where it sees something I physically can’t because of either blindspots or pillars in the car.

Having the car drive and you intervene is statistically safer than the national average. You could argue the inverse is better (you drive and the car intervenes), but I’d argue that system would be far worse, as you’d be relinquishing final say to the computer and we don’t have a legal system setup for that, regardless of how good the software is (e.g you’re still responsible as the driver).

You can call it a marketing term, but in reality it can and does successfully drive point to point with no interventions normally. The places it does fuckup are consistent fuckups (e.g bad road markings that convey the wrong thing, and you only know because you’ve been on that road thousands of times). It’s not human, but it’s far more consistent than a human, in both the ways it succeeds and fails. If you learn these patterns you can spend more time paying attention to what other drivers are doing and novel things that might be dangerous (people, animals, etc ) and less time on trivial things like mechanically staying inside of two lines or adjusting your speed. Looking in your blindspot or to the side isn’t nearly as dangerous for example, so you can get more information.