Seen this on reddit and thought it was an interesting question that largely is not talked about.
It is largely an issue that gets sidelined and hidden because people don’t want to talk about it or accept that it exists. Hopefully this gets some traction to break that marginalisation.
I think this is a good example of some of the issues men face.
"It comes off as lack of self reflection and disingenuous where men have allowed women to suffer for years (decades? centuries?), but as soon as men are experiencing it too, its a crisis now!
Certainly not all, but certainly lots and lots of bad things. Only 13 of the 193 UN member nations have *ever* had a woman leader of the nation. [source](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/03/28/women-leaders-around-the-world/) I don’t see how anyone can say women are to blame for that, nor the policies those world leaders put into place.
I’m willing to give a woman a chance to lead. She certainly can’t be any worse that some of the worst men we’ve had as leaders."
I think this is a good example of some of the issues men face. That their issues do not matter because others have it worse. And like you show it is always lost in the general grouping of things. “I do not care how badly you as an individual has been treated because the group you are part of hasn’t been as hard done by as another group. Therefore because you are part of that group your issues matter less”. There always seems to be thus weird idea present that because say women have had it worse in the past that things need to be evened out by men having it worse now. Bad things have happened in the past yes, that goes without saying. But short of a time machine it won’t ever be fixed, but discrimination or issues in the present of any kind should be fixed. It shouldn’t be some weighing up of past offences of a group before an decision on an individual, that has in no way contributed to past offences happens. That’s what discrimination is.
A lot of leaders has been upper class white men yes. But they exploited working class white men as much as anyone. So because an upper class white man did something in the past some working class white man must pay for it now? Class is way more important than gender in a lot of things. How am I, a man that has never been in a position of power anymore responsible for geopolitics than a women that hasn’t been in power? Taring me for being a man for crimes of other men isn’t right.
But again you are passing the responsibility and making excuses. No one is denying men have done bad things. But accepting men have also being on the receiving end of bad things just for being men, or just in general, is important. This is the most kind of the misandry I see. Women doing something and then saying that because white men are in charge they are without fault? The guys in power don’t have that much power, that don’t stop individuals mistreating other individuals.
Nope, thats not what I said nor what I meant.
Here, I’m make it easier to understand. Lets say we have two 35 year old men: Jim and John. Two years ago Jim suffered kidney failure. He’s been struggling on dialysis all this time just to stay alive. Multiple times a week he has to sit attached to a machine for hours to filter his blood so it doesn’t kill him. It causes bruises on his body. He gets sick easier and stays sick longer. Its an existence, but its pretty miserable. Jim has been set back for years not able to hold a job because his illness has caused him to miss work. He’s been spending any spare money on medical bills or expenses related to his kidney failure. He has no savings.
John has been active and healthy. He’s been able to focus his energy on his career. Its increased his income, and he owns a nice house. He has substantial retirements savings, and plenty of extra money in the bank. Now, up until yesterday John was was healthy. Today he was diagnosed with kidney failure. He has his first dialysis appointment 3 days from now. Later that day a donor kidney becomes available and its a match for both Jim and John. However, since there is only one kidney, it can only go to one of the men.
You’re advocating that John, should get the kidney.
Nope, I’m not ignoring that men because they are facing these issues women have faced for years/decades/centuries. I’m saying that if we have resources to fix one of them, we should address the one that has been hurting longer.
Incorrect. We can’t fix sins of the past entirely, but we can certainly do whats possible today to make it right. In California, Bruce’s Beach is a good example of this. Institutional racism has had multi generational negative effects on wealth accumulation. Bruce’s Beach is a good step, but it doesn’t help the millions of people of color that have suffered because of practices like this including Redlining that even today results in lower wealth for people of color.
I’m glad you agree! Where is your action to helping women with all the issues you cited just started happening to men? Where is your advocacy to return balance to people of color that got shafted for decades? No, your urgency is laser focused on fixing the relatively recent problems men are experiencing.
If we have limited resources for mitigation of issues, yes, men are in line for those resources too, but the lions share needs to address the greater and more urgent injuries.
Tell me about a time where you were in the workplace and saw a woman you work with be treated less than a man, and you stood up and said “that isn’t right”. What actions have you taken against domestic violence against women? You can’t continue to benefit from your position of power letting others being repressed, and claim no responsibility when you have benefited.
“Yes yes, women have had it bad for years/decades/centuries, and it continues to be bad for them, but what about me?! Its just now started happening to me now, and NOW its a problem!” This is what your statement sounds like. If you continue to see people rolling their eyes when they hear your pleas this is why.
Citation please.
Listen, I really hope you’re on the younger side because that would excuse a huge chunk of your ignorance. You don’t need to be an elected official to be a “guy in power”. As a guy, you have power. Are you using it to help those that need it? You need to have some conversations with adult women in your life that are willing to be honest with you. Do you have an adult sister? Can you ask your mother? I don’t think you have a fucking clue how difficult it is to be a woman even today with all the improvements in law and social evolutionary change. I could cite statistics to you that even today women are paid less than men even for the same exact work, experience, education, and skill. I could tell you that girls tell each other when they’re going on a first date and where, so in case they don’t return the police can be called. I could tell you that in a room full of powerful men and a single powerful woman, the woman will be the one expected to “get coffee” or “take notes” while a man is never asked. Do I even need to point out that men are trying to decided if a woman has rights to her own body?
Men face none of that. I’ve seen lots of this first hand. I know this. I’m a man.
Jesus Christ give me strength.
This is going to go nowhere. Look do you accept certain individuals in the world are mistreated? That we should ideally address every issue on an individual basis and try to fix the issue that is affected that person? Now if it is a man should we ignore them?
What you are saying is someone has it worse so I don’t want to hear it. You don’t get to complain, you don’t get help, you don’t get attention, you’re going to get ignored just because you are a man.
Some people have it worse than others yes. Some men have been on the receiving end of sexism more than some women. But if you are going to say women have more issues than men so men don’t get anything then that’s a horrible, sexist thing to say. Well who has it worst? Some kid starving in Sudan. Oh I don’t want to hear about how you had to get coffee, there are kids starving in Sudan we can only address one issue at a time and you come from a developed country with excess food. No. Be quiet until we fix the Sudan issue I don’t want to hear it.
Your kidney analogy is a terrible one. A better one would be that when deciding if Jim or John should get a kidney they looked back through the records and found in 1965 some guy called Jim got a kidney and some guy called John died. So now it’s Johns turn to get a kidney. That’s how sexism works, you group people and mistreat individuals rather than treating people as individuals.
You seem to be trying to make out that I’m saying only men have issues and no one else does. I’m not saying that I’m saying men ALSO have issues as well as other people, sometimes they are the same, sometimes they are different and they are humans too and they deserve attention, love and affection just like anyone else. But there are people like you in the world that don’t want to accept men have issues because you only want non-male issues addressing.
The most sexism I have seen in the workforce has been on hiring policies. That before the job has even been posted people are looking for women. You might have some 21 year old guy straight out of university, he could have been in the feminists society for all we know, he and the 10 other guys won’t even have a chance at the job because 1 woman has applied and they job is reserved for her based on sex alone. That’s sexism and all sexism is bad. Young men are really struggling now in a way people don’t want to address. Especially working class uneducated men. But all, all, the attention is on women.
Ask him for perspective at the same time. You’re still missing lots of of it.
As I have said multiple times already, yes.
Not in isolation, no.
Keep your strawman. I’ve never said that.
More strawmen from you. I don’t know who you’re arguing with but its not me. I haven’t said any of those things.
Cool, because I’ve never said that. That’s more strawmen.
I’ve mentioned nothing but the USA. I’ve said this already. Your introduction of countries outside the USA is yet another strawman.
I’m not talking about looking back in history for that analogy. I specifically mentioned both men were born at the same time (same age). John could have had kidney troubles because he lived near a coal plant for most of his life because thats the only real estate bank would let his parents buy (aka Redlining). So history affects what John is today, but you’re wanting to handwave away that Jim started live on 2nd base.
That’s part of how sexism works, but you’re missing the really key other parts.
Again, thats your strawman. I have multiple times recognized that men have issues.
Again with your strawman. I have said multiple times that men have issues, and that those issues should be addressed. However, they don’t get first dibs.
Oh god, you’re full redpill aren’t you. Men have had it easy for hundreds of years compared to women. Only now that men are facing a small part of the difficulties that women are still facing, you’re calling it an injustice.
I highly HIGHLY recommend you do some introspection. Learn some empathy for people that aren’t like you. You’re giving men a bad name. As a man myself, that negatively affects me too. Most of your arguments are with me. You’ve got so much strawman logic in your latest, I see no point in continuing. I won’t be replying anymore. I hope you have a nice day.
Oh great because you only seem capable of having your own conversation instead of talking about the original conversation.