Seeing the discussion about this get censored heavily was enlightening. The modlog had some of the best comments.
Imane Khelif is an intersex man that has the advantage of male puberty because he has XY chromosomes. He, like many intersex men, was born with ambiguous genitalia that looked like a vulva (but almost certainly didn’t have an actual female reproductive system). He was AFAB in the correct sense of the term, but is relying on incorrect paperwork to compete in women’s boxing.
Lemmy should be horrified at a dude punching women, not providing a smokescreen by saying “But Russia!”. The IBA had the tests done by independent labs that confirmed he is male, possibly with a DSD. They’re corrupt, but not in any way that affects this. If Khelif wants to prove them wrong and ensure that nobody ever believes the IBA ever again, he can get a simple cheek swab and show the world.
Sex is not hard. XY is male, XX is female. If something goes wrong with that, then you’re intersex. Leave women’s sports to women (XX). Intersex people can compete in men’s sports. Anything else is going to push women out of sports completely, because they have a biological disadvantage against men. If the Olympics doesn’t re-institute sex testing, we’re going to end up with “Men’s” and “Men with DSD” divisions.
What a delightfully absurd catch-22. “You can only protest the rules that prevent you from winning if you’re a winner”. Joseph Heller would be proud.
I think it’s probably good to take a step back and see how we got to this point. Do a little recap. The first thing that I said was that you were strapped to some propaganda machines. That’s how this entire comment chain started. Please feel free and go back to my first comment in this thread if you feel I’m mischaracterizing it.
You asked why I thought you were sucking down propaganda, and I enumerated the reasons for it. Not the least of which, I might remind you, is that you care so much about the outcome of an amateur female boxing Olympic event that you made a post about how disappointed you were with the Lemmy community for how they were reacting to it. Our entire conversation to this point is predicated on the fact that you’re so deeply affected by the outcome of a sport that you very likely didn’t give a single, solitary fuck about 2 weeks ago. So let’s set that as a baseline here.
Next, I pointed out that the only evidence you’ve presented for your argument that Khelif is a man is that the IBA said so, that the IOC made an ambiguous tweet, and that some of the people who Khelif beat were butthurt about it. Again, please feel free to peruse the entire conversation to date to verify the truth of what I just said.
When I pointed out that even in the off chance that Khelif is intersex, it very specifically doesn’t violate IOC rules, and that Olympic events are run by the IOC, you throw some catch-22 bullshit at me.
Let’s face it, my guy: you’re unhinged. There is no reaching you. You have a conclusion that you want to be true, and you’re upset that other people you share this space with aren’t convinced by your evidence. I think it would be a very good idea for you to take a step back, and examine why you’re so invested in your foregone conclusion here. Why do you feel so strongly about this issue that you’re willing to not only make a post about it, but go to something like 12 or 13 replies deep in a hostile conversation with a stranger about it? What do you get out of this if you’re right, and what do you lose if you’re wrong?
I think your perspective is entirely too narrow, and that you’re entirely too invested in an issue that has literally nothing whatsoever to do with you. This is why I suggested in my first reply to you that you should probably distance yourself from the internet for a bit and do some soul searching.
I think a more fair recap is that you tried slinging lots of mud, declared that no evidence exists, ignored the part where this can be easily fixed with a simple cheek swab, and then shat on the women that had their dreams crushed.
Independent lab tests confirmed Khelif and Lin are men. A journalist has claimed to see the test results (which you neglected from your summary). The IOC knew about these tests, and so had to correct itself after saying it’s not a DSD case (because it is). That’s enough to have any reasonable person say “Hey, maybe a quick cheek swab to prove this would be a good idea”. You keep on skipping past the point that this is super easy and simple to clear up. Why don’t they just do that?
Yes, saying “The IOC makes the rules. The women who lost because of the rules can’t complain, because only winners can contest the rules” is a classic catch-22. It is bullshit, but not in the way you meant. They’re allowed to be pissed off that the rules allow men to compete, and advocate for change.
I hope you’ll listen to the evidence as it comes out, like it did for Caster “My testicles don’t make me any less of a woman” Semenya.
Edit: If you or anyone else would like more facts, here’s a good rundown of the situation:
https://old.reddit.com/r/fourthwavewomen/comments/1ep6ydk/womens_olympic_boxing_controversy_explained_facts/
Hard disagree. First of all, any “evidence” you provided is speculative at best, and downright trash at worst. Secondly, why should the Olympics single these fighters out to even more scrutiny just because some people like you are butthurt about a woman beating a woman in combat sports?
Ok? Did he publish them? Did the lab publish information about the tests they did? No? Then who gives a shit? If the evidence isn’t public, then it’s not useful. You’re claiming that it exists because you want to believe it exists. The only evidence for it is a shady organization and one journalist who says that he saw the results once. I really hope you’re not an investigator, because you’d be shit at it.
They very clearly don’t, though. No competitor in women’s boxing was a man. Your insistence that they were is completely unfounded.
If any evidence does come out, and if it is credible, I will change my opinion on the matter accordingly. That’s a big “if”, though, as there has been no evidence presented to date, other than your feelings.
Oh FFS, now Khelif’s coach admits it:
https://archive.ph/QwQwD
This was a lot of effort for them to just drop the farce after he already walked off with the gold
Ok - I’m sold that Khelif is intersex. But again, that doesn’t change anything. The IOC sets the rules for their competitions, and they don’t preclude people with Khelif’s condition from competing, so she did not break any rules as you suggested. Additionally, according to that same coach in that same interview you posted, Khelif had been on a hormone adjustment regimen for the past year, meaning that her muscle mass and testosterone levels are in line with other female athletes of her age. So it’s not like she has an unfair advantage because of increased testosterone. And besides that, it’s not like she’s unbeatable. She’s lost 9 fights to other women, and that was before 2023, when her coach said she started having her hormones regulated. 9 other women beat someone who was living with all of the advantages you ascribe to being intersex.
Also, your repeated misgendering of her is really shitty of you. She was born, raised, and identifies as female. Gender isn’t just based on what your chromosomes are. You saw a woman win against other women, and you got all hot and bothered about it, despite it being completely within the rules of the competition she was in, despite her having testosterone levels and muscle mass within the range of her competitors, and despite her losing against other women on several previous occasions.