I’ve been thinking about martial arts and how really it is useful these days since a lot of places will have criminals hiding firearms or in the U.S. some states have conceal carry.
Whilst it contains discipline and it is enjoyable to train in a club for, say Karate, I just think it might not be that useful in places where firearms are commonly held, all it really takes is for someone to take safety off, aim, pew pew and that’s it.
I suppose I probably get this thinking from kung fu where it’s seen more of an art form then actually being a serious bone breaking form of combat
I begun judo a few weeks ago. The teacher was clear: it may not be useful in actual fight, but we don’t fight often in the real life. But it’s great for your body, spirit and it will teach you how to fall without hurting yourself. And these things are way more useful than self defense.
The best physical training I ever had were: judo and working in the dish room of my college dining hall where the floor was always wet and slimy with food. Between the two of them, I never slipped again. When I saw an ice covered stairway or slope, I could go shooting down it with confidence I’d stay on my feet. Between the slippery floor while carrying breakables and knowing how to fall, falling was just not an issue.
Of course now I want me some of that “youth” back
With 6 months of brazilian jiujitsu training you’ll win an unexperienced person bigger than you at wrestling virtually every single time. You may still get punched in the face, stabbed or shot but if you need to go hands on with someone it absolutely is better to know BJJ / MMA / wrestling than not.
It taught me meditation and self-control. It made exercise desirable as an activity.
But for self-defense, many martial arts do teach techniques for disarming opponents. The range within a gun loses effectiveness against a trained, unarmed opponent is actually larger than you think. Not to mention that muggers tend to avoid “harder” marks like those in good shape or who move like fighters.
who move like fighters.
This is a big one. People who know how to fight can pretty easily identify other people who know how to fight. Just knowing how to fight will keep you out of a lot of fights.
all of the “real” Martial arts from back before guns were about using weapons. those aren’t really practiced as much anymore because they’re all useless in the face of firearms anyway. why spend years training with a knife when the same time could be spent training with a gun. if combat effectiveness is your goal then you need to learn modern combat techniques.
that said, there’s plenty to be learned from it, and it’s not like it can’t help you in a fight. but as another commenter said, the real way to win every fight is by avoiding them. so really the best thing to learn is de-escalation and recognizing danger.
I have done quite a few martial arts. Anyone who tells you you can learn X and fight against someone who is armed (knife or gun) is simply spouting B.S.
If someone pulls out a gun on you, give that person what he wants and pray you are not going to end up shot anyway.
If someone pulls out a knife on you, again, don’t try to be a hero: give that person what he wants. Don’t play hero, especially if the guy holding the knife seems to know what he is doing.
Martial arts are just a way to train your body and your mind, both trainings are valuable in and out of themselves. They will keep you calm in a tense situation, they may even save your life since no one wants to mess with a dude that keeps his cool. Ultimately, a street fight can be avoided just by looking calm and composed.
If someone pulls out a knife on you, do the same.
I know what you mean here, but the phrasing is hilarious out of context.
Always bring a knife to a knife fight
But if you have a tank, use it instead.
Op is Australian:
Yeah, I should read what I write before posting… 😉
useful for what? when I was doing martial arts I was in the best shape of my life. as far as fighting? Fuck no.
My two cents having practiced several.
Almost all of them are useful in that they are a form of physical activity. They can keep you in good shape, and can also help you develop discipline.
Many are more art than practical. Arts like krav maga or kali are more geared towards practical use (self defense).
There is also a thing you can generally think of as “energy” that arts may have that often trend to make them not very practical against arts outside of themselves. For example, if a wing chun practitioner attempts to trap with you, and you’re a boxer, it just doesn’t work. It’s somewhat about range, but also the general “feel” of the art as well. JKD attempts to deal with this by teaching different arts that can be used within different ranges.
My one instructor also likened martial arts to technology, saying that they must evolve over time or just end up becoming ineffective for self defense.
The best thing to do in a situation, if you can, is to just escape. Your wallet is not worth your life.
Fighting seems cool in movies.
In real life, it’s police, lawyers and prison.
There are few stupider life choices one could make other than fighting in public.
MMA has an interesting trajectory where people actually didn’t know which style would win at first. Dudes in gis would actually fight some dude in kickboxing gear. Look up some old MMA fights and you’ll see the fights were usually awkward and bad.
Someone else called out in this thread that the rules of MMA influence what wins. I think that makes sense. They can’t just immediately kick each other in the balls.
I say join a gym and try out a few fights just so you know what it feels like to get punched in the face, and then do like everyone else says and get good at cardio. If you have asthma carry concealed I guess.
Look up some old MMA fights and you’ll see the fights were usually awkward and bad.
Art Jimmerson vs Royce Gracie at UFC 1
For those not in the know Royce Gracie is one of the best to ever in jiujitsu. He won UFC 1, 2, & 4.
Art Jimmerson showed up with one hand with a boxing glove and one without. Royce showed up in a gi with no gloves.
Let’s just say Art didn’t do so well.
The fight is on youtube for anyone who wants to watch it. It isn’t very long.
Getting to black sash in northern Shaolin is a personal challenge. It’s great excercise, good community, gets me out of the house.
6 years in and 2 forms away from black. I’m almost there
I’m not certain, given your use case. As someone with a deep passion for martial arts (judo > Jiu Jitsu > Aikido > Tai Chi), I would say while they can be useful in certain situations (even tai chi chuan, which is certainly the most inner one). Self defense classes with actual teaching about fighting a guy with a knife/gun would be more suited, maybe.
Military, police, security and intelligence operatives train in it for a reason. You’re right that it’s not very practical or necessary for the average person. And for those who do need it, it’s an option of absolute last resort and desperation. Running away, if possible, is the wiser choice. But, it can make the difference in a life or death situation. Someone who knows how to fight and has practice doing it has a big advantage over someone who doesn’t.
Exercise: And if you find martial arts fun and a really good workout, more power to you. I think for many people, however, there are less injury-prone ways to get a good workout.
incorrect. we train in combatives.
Similar. but different. the differences are subtle and yet also very important. Like don’t-fucking-die important.
Settle down, Dwight. Combatives are based on martial arts. You’re being pedantic over semantics. I also already mentioned how important they are for some folks.
Actually, what you call Martial Arts came from what would be called today “Combatives”.
Martial was another way of saying “Military”. We call it “combatives” so nobody confuses what we’re teaching you to do with “Sport” or “competition” Martial arts- where the goal isn’t to kill your opponent in the most efficient means possible.
While there are only so many ways to move the human body, that distinction is rather important. Because you fight like you train.
The board breaking is just a small grift to increase your confidence. When you start out the person holding the board does most of the work to break the board. It’s several belts before the board start getting thick enough to put up a fight. All those boards are cut across the grain leaving short fibers that are able to snap.
You are training to dodge and block, Even redirect your opponent and use their actions against them. That’s not nothing. A lot of places will tack on a little disarmament and self-defense or run a class with that is the primary goal, But honestly you don’t want to use martial arts to try to take on someone with a gun or a knife unless it is absolutely necessary because there’s a high chance you’re going to get got.
Combat training is extremely useful, even play combat training, It puts you in a situation and has you react a certain way taking out some of the uncertainty and worry out of the situation. You start planning instead of reacting. But for the most part if somebody is threatening you with a gun or a knife you’re better off not trying to take it off of them and beat them up.
This is a difficult question.
If you’re a bouncer, then yeah, mixed martial arts is definitely useful (e…g., something like both muay thai and Brazilian juijitsu). For a typical person that’s unlikely to ever need to defend their life, probably not.
As far as which martial art you should take, if you’re going to take one… It depends on what you want. If you want a physical activity that doesn’t have to be practical, then take up something like kyudo, kenjutsu, or aikido. If you want something that’s practical, then look into juijitsu and things based more in grappling. If you seriously worry about getting into a confrontation with someone that’s armed, then look up Shiv Works, and see what they have in your area.
A concealed carry permit can be useful, yes, but it’s very, very situational, and requires practice. Moreover, ever single bullet you fire outside of a range has to be accounted for.
I second Cabbage. RUNNING will more reliably save your life than any amount of combat training. But also, situational awareness. Most incidents can be easily avoided simply by paying attention to what’s around you and not putting yourself in that sketchy situation to begin with.
If you’re a bouncer, then yeah, mixed martial arts is definitely useful (e…g., something like both muay thai and Brazilian juijitsu). For a typical person that’s unlikely to ever need to defend their life, probably not.
NO.*
competition martial arts have rules. Rules that you abide by and train to follow. and inevetibably, training to fight inside these rules will invariably leave you open to certain kinds of attack, and to miss exploiting openings in the other guy. Yes. This includes MMA. You can tell that people in MMA follow these rules because nobody is biting the other dude’s balls off. or twisting them off, or generally kicking to the groin. (groin strikes were originally allowed, but then banned in UFC, for example. Too many crushed testes)
and for the record, if it’s you or them… yeah. get nibbly. You also don’t see people snapping necks or stomping skulls after a toss. It’s very rare for any kind of combat sport organization to allow things that will, you know, kill their competitors.
If you want to train for self defense… train for self defense.
*Disclaimer: Muay Thai wasn’t always a competition thing. the OG Muay Thai will absolutely fuck an asshole up. most martial arts were originally military training, and if you can get training on THAT, yeah, that’ll be fine. in the US, you’re never gonna see that, though.
Again. just to reiterate. You’re best off not getting in the situation, and that’s best avoided by maintaining awareness of what’s around you. You’re second-best off running the fuck away. Constructive Cowardice is nothing to be ashamed of- it will save your life. but, if it comes to it, and it’s you or them, don’t fight fair. Fair is how you die.
A bouncer isn’t usually going to be fighting to survive; they’re throwing some dude the fuck out of a venue, or subduing them until cops show up.
As far as my comment about Shiv Works - I stand by that 100%. Look them up. They train with bare hands, knives, and guns (firing non-lethal training munitions), and in awkward spaces (such as you might experience in a car jacking).
Any discipline that forces you to act while under pressure is going to improve your odds if you end up in a situation where fighting is your only real option. If you get sucked-punched on a subway, experience in e.g. boxing is going to be far, far better than nothing at all, despite the fact that boxing has rules. IDPA/USPSA will not, contrary to claims, get you kilt in da streets, because practice moving and shooting is better than not.
The idea that there’s a real distinction between self-defense and martial arts in general is nonsense. If you’re good in MMA, this is going to translate almost 1:1 to self defense. Here’s the blunt truth: most of the people that are going to attack a person have a LOT of experience fighting. If you want to defend yourself, you’re going to need to give yourself a lot of the same experiences, even if it’s in a more controlled setting, and “self-defense” classes aren’t going to do that.
And, BTW, I know a guy that teaches wu shu (Eagle Claw, I think?) that also works as a bouncer. He is very, very effective, and uses the things he teaches as a bouncer. He’s small–like, 5’5", 150#–and he punches well above his weight.
So, Road House isn’t realistic. bouncers (and security guards in general,) have already lost once they go hands on.
And yes, you bet your ass they’re fighting to survive.
Nobody fucks around when one mistake sends you to the ER or worse, fucking dead. Every time you go hands on, there’s always a chance some one pulls a knife or gun and ends you, maybe also everyone around you.
By the time you’re in a fight, you’ve lost control, you’ve already lost. Bouncers and guards are generally not armed in any capacity and rely instead on soft skills to descalate, and again, reacting before it gets to that point.
Further, that’s not self defense. the most useful self defense skill you can have is paying attention and not getting into a situation. The second most useful self defense skill is running away.
Uh. I know a whole bunch of people that have bounced at multiple clubs in Chicago. I know one guy that was loss prevention at a store in Chicago that used to love chasing people down, because he enjoys that shit.
Tell yourself that if you want to, but the truth is that bouncers are going to have to know how to fight to at least some degree, because they’re going to end up in fights.
I know a whole bunch of people that have bounced at multiple clubs in Chicago
that used to love chasing people down
Did you ask them if they got fired for being a liability nightmare? Or for driving customers away?
Cuz, I don’t know any corporate LP that would tolerate that behavior, neither do I know any owners/managers of bars, strip clubs or whatever, that would tolerate aggressive behavior.
Liability is a bitch, and the cost of one fuck up getting someone hurt is way more expensive than the loss due to shoplifting.
In a bar, you’re interacting with patrons, people you want to come back, and spend loads of money. Fights breaking out is not conducive to that; and one of the great ways to lose your liquor license is to have too many calls to police. And yes, they will be calling the police any time they have to go hands on- otherwise the subject could come back and ding your staff for assault. Remember, liability is a bitch.
Oh. By the way, this is my job. I’m a manager for contract security.
Tell yourself that if you want to, but the truth is that bouncers are going to have to know how to fight to at least some degree, because they’re going to end up in fights.
Knowing how to fight is one thing. And you’re right, it’s almost inevitable, at least across a long career.
Doesn’t change the fact that when a fight breaks out it’s almost always avoidable, and in every single interaction I’ve studied (over thousands, this is my job.) there were critical points where things could have been done differently, where a fight could have been averted.
It’s not easy and people make mistakes, but the kinds of guys that go looking for fights? Yeah. Liability is a bitch and even if the manager likes it, their insurance company will drop them like a sack of rancid potatoes.
The managers almost certainly don’t like it, though, because usually they’re interacting with paying customers, and ruining other customer’s nights. Everyone is better off handling the situation through soft skills rather than hard skills.
Not like against a bear, mountain lion, or gorilla no
