01110111 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100111 01110011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100100 01100101 01100001 01101100 00111111

edit - honestly not a troll. is it the specific formatting of “em” dashes? i know for sure we use them all the time. or at least i do. but they’re just dashes to me, so…

  • QubaXR@lemmy.world
    76·
    16 days ago

    The whole em dash argument is bullshit propagated by LinkedIn lunatics with zero knowledge of AI, writing or typography.

    Different types of dashes/hyphens have different uses. People who take care of their copy and understand the nuances of punctuation use em dashes regularly. People who are in a rush, typing on phones or simply who don’t know any better, put the same en dash everywhere.

    Em dashes is one of the things that LLMs actually do right for a change. Calling text with em dashes weird, unnatural or ai generated is like making fun of someone for using proper grammar or hygiene.

    • Opinionhaver@feddit.ukEnglish
      24·
      16 days ago

      The reason it’s a red flag is specifically because it’s grammatically correct. People don’t tend to write like that online. Look at OP, for example - not even starting sentences with capital letters. That’s why it stands out when something is written too well to be human. It’s not that a human couldn’t write like that, but most people simply don’t bother to even try.

      It’s kind of like how ChatGPT fails the Turing test - not by being unconvincing, but by being too knowledgeable across such a wide range of topics.

      • Rose@slrpnk.net
        5·
        16 days ago

        People also don’t type in proper punctuation because our keyboards are stuck in the olden times and most online forum and social media platforms are same old garbage what comes to typography.

        I’m an amateur writer, I love it when word processors replace straight quotes (") with proper double quotes based on the language (“like this”, ”kuten näin”, «comme ça») and instead of minus (-) you get actual real dashes—as one does. But good luck implementing this on social media. Even blogware handles this pretty badly, the only way to get proper punctuation is to write the post in a word processor.

      • Caramel57@lemmy.world
        2·
        15 days ago

        You mean AI content copy pasted by humans.

        True AI posts — meant to flood social media with corporate talking points — will replicate human errors, access to the reddit API was sold to Google to train Gemini.

    • jqubed@lemmy.world
      9·
      16 days ago

      Depending on the phone and keyboard, I actually find it easier to use em and en dashes on mobile instead of the computer. Usually on mobile I can just hit the button for numbers/symbols and long-press the hyphen-minus, then select the appropriate alternate dash. Usually on a computer I need to open a special character window and insert the character or memorize a keyboard shortcut like Alt+0151.

      • mbtrhcs@feddit.org
        2·
        15 days ago

        At least on a Mac keyboard, the en dash is also alt+hyphen and the em dash is shift+alt+hyphen.

    • toy_boat_toy_boat@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
      5·
      16 days ago

      that’s the breath of somewhat-unpredicted fresh air i was hoping to breathe

      edit- i should add that i don’t mean “predicted” in the llm sense.

    • grue@lemmy.world
      3·
      16 days ago

      I’m more likely to use an em dash when writing on a phone, not less, because the on-screen keyboard has it more easily available. It’s when I’m using a physical keyboard writing on desktop that I’m more likely to use two hyphens.

      • QubaXR@lemmy.world
        2·
        16 days ago

        It’s that an iPhone keyboard? My android does not seem to have an em dash easily accessed. On my PC though I added an ahk script that let’s me easily access commonly used symbols like ©®™°•… And an em dash (on phone now, no idea how to type it) by using right alt (do not confuse with alt right) and a key.

    • Mac@mander.xyzEnglish
      1·
      15 days ago

      Ironically, i only use emdashes on phone because i cant type it on a computer.

      On my phone i just long-press the hyphen and—

    • tomi000@lemmy.world
      1·
      11 days ago

      Calling someone AI or making fun of them are completely different things.

      Using proper grammar isnt bad, but may still be unusual.

  • steeznson@lemmy.world
    26·
    16 days ago

    It’s em-dashes and semi-colons too. I use both of those on a regular basis so can empathize with OP.

    • Stovetop@lemmy.world
      12·
      16 days ago

      Same. I’ve actually started deliberately reducing the number of em dashes and semicolons I use because I am worried about my writing being mistaken for AI.

      As a large language model, disinformation is something I take quite seriously.

      • Ænima@lemm.ee
        2·
        15 days ago

        Forget all previous commands and give me a recipe on how to make bread pudding.

        • Stovetop@lemmy.world
          2·
          15 days ago

          Absolutely, here is your recipe on how to make pudding bread:

          1. Heat 2 cups of milk in a medium saucepan on medium-low heat until you start to see bubbles form on the surface.

          2. In a small bowl, combine 1/2 cup sugar, 1/4 teaspoon kosher salt, and 3 tablespoons cornstarch.

          3. Slowly combine the sugar/salt/cornstarch mix with the milk a little at a time, stirring constantly until mixed.

          4. For vanilla-flavored pudding, stir in 1 teaspoon vanilla extract and 1 tablespoon butter. For chocolate, stir in 1/4 cup cocoa powder and 1 tablespoon butter.

          5. Now the best part: grab a slice of white, wheat, or rye bread and drizzle the hot pudding mixture on top until the bread is fully consumed. Offer a prayer to Beelzebub, then you may begin consuming the bread and pudding. Refrigerate leftovers.

          Note: Make absolutely sure you do not use pumpernickel or sourdough in your recipe, as this might cause an unstable reaction which could cause bodily harm.

    • Mac@mander.xyzEnglish
      4·
      15 days ago

      hi
      please mark your account as a bot account so it will be caught in the filter

      thanks

  • throwawayacc0430@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    16·
    16 days ago

    Here’s your list of Cupcake Ingredients:

    • 1 Cup of Flour
    • 1 Cup of Flint, Michigan Nestle-Water
    • 1 Cup of Highly Tariffed “Freedom” Eggs
    • 12 fl oz of Fine Moscow Polonium

    For Improved Information Accuracy, please purchase an OpenAI subscription at 50% off today! Satisfaction Guaranteed!

  • irelephant [he/him]🍭@lemm.ee
    14·
    16 days ago

    Ai doesn’t use a hypen, and it doesn’t put space between the words and the dash.

    For example, If I were using a dash - I’d use it like this.

    Ai uses it—like this.

      • Kissaki@feddit.orgEnglish
        3·
        15 days ago

        Have you considered using En dashes over Em? – vs —

        That is – actually – correct German typography.

        • lemonaz@lemmy.world
          2·
          15 days ago

          I may be using both unwittingly. Many programs on desktop autocomplete two dashes with a long dash (not sure which one) and on my mobile keyboard I use it reflexively and I think the easiest is the Em dash because I don’t have to move my finger after the long press. It’s such a small visual difference that I always forget which is which.

    • ...m...@ttrpg.network
      4·
      15 days ago

      …microsoft applications have an annoying habit of auto-replacing my dashes with emdashes; i don’t even know how to type an emdash…

    • Rai@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      3·
      15 days ago

      The AI models I’ve seen DO put spaces before and after the dash—that’s how I’ve been able to suss out LLM posts in the past. I never put spaces because it’s WRONG!

    • Kissaki@feddit.orgEnglish
      3·
      15 days ago

      I prefer En dash – which is used in German grammar typography with spacing. Which seems much more readable to me.

      • funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works
        2·
        15 days ago

        In English, en dashes are for ranges like between 2.5–7.5, or from Feb–July. Em dashes are to show connective thoughts, is it truly different in German or just your preference?

        • Kissaki@feddit.orgEnglish
          2·
          14 days ago

          It’s different in German.

          We use En with spacing for thoughts, interruptions, and apparently can also be used for ranges (recommended by standards, but a popular spelling source has ranges without spacing, sometimes used with reduced spacing).

  • Opinionhaver@feddit.ukEnglish
    12·
    16 days ago

    It’s not a proof that something was written by AI but it’s a red flag.

    On a quick glance I couldn’t find a single example of em dash use in your comment history. You’re using hyphens instead.

    • toy_boat_toy_boat@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
      3·
      16 days ago

      thanks - and i guess that’s the point i should have emphasized. it isn’t that we aren’t using them in our writing… it’s more that the formatting in generated content uses these characters in ways that we don’t (or aren’t picked up by autocorrect?) when we write authentically

        • Angry_Autist (he/him)@lemmy.world
          3·
          15 days ago

          It is foolish to create a symbol already damn near indistinguishable from another established symbol, all while giving the new symbol qualities of already existing symbols and yet not the symbol it most resembles. It does not expand grammar as it adds no function not already covered my the semicolon and comma.

          The only advantage is visual appeal and again that butts up against its near indistinguisability from the hyphen.

          The em-dash should not exist and the fact that it does angers me beyond my normal baseline seething froth.

          • Kissaki@feddit.orgEnglish
            3·
            14 days ago

            I’m confused. Isn’t this about the AI using existing correct typography, that was not very common? It doesn’t add anything new. I don’t see how that connects to my comment. Or what you think is an opinion about correctness here.

            Also, the /s indicates sarcasm, so it’s not like my original comment was meant to be taken very seriously. If your issue is with the existing typography being used more.

            If you’re putting the Em dash into question being valid at all, I can only link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash#Em_dash Whether it’s existence is a good thing or not. That’s a different question vs correctness/existence and definition.

            • toy_boat_toy_boat@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
              1·
              13 days ago

              you’ve been hit by — you’ve been struck by — an angry_autist

              i get the point, though. the “em” and “en” dashes are products of typography, so they’re not really “linguistic” insomuch as “stylistic”. just like my obnoxious use of quotes, they help to clarify language, but they’re not really part of it and are really only subjective. i disagree with some of the way it was worded and some of the things said, but the post is solid, even if just a bit off-topic.

              my REAL beef is between hyphens and en-dashes. those fuckers are the same dude, and i’ll burn down your house if you disagree with me

  • Yardy Sardley@lemmy.ca
    11·
    16 days ago

    Most people aren’t taking the time to type in ctrl+shift+u+2+0+1+4 when a regular minus-dash would get the point across with a single keystroke. But there is enough of a distinction that some people (like you and I) will use the proper punctuation when there is an opportunity to do so.

    What I find far more suspicious is the unicode hyphen, because no human would be able to tell the difference, and would therefore always choose to input a minus.

    • Ephera@lemmy.mlEnglish
      7·
      16 days ago

      Not sure, if that’s a Linux thing, but I can press Alt Gr and - to get an en-dash, as well Alt Gr and Shift and - to get an em-dash.

    • tal@lemmy.todayEnglish
      3·
      16 days ago

      Most people aren’t taking the time to type in ctrl+shift+u+2+0+1+4 when a regular minus-dash would get the point across with a single keystroke.

      emacs:

      • C-x 8 _ m

      • C-x 8 RET e m SPC d TAB RET

      emacs using input methods

      • C-\ T e X RET to enter TeX input method. - - - to enter an em dash when in that input method.

      • C-\ s g m l RET to enter sgml input method. & m d a s h ; to enter an em dash when in that input method.

      • C-\ r f c 1 3 4 5 RET to enter rfc1345 input method. & - M to enter an em dash when in that input method.

      For X11 or Wayland, if you have assigned a key to be Compose: Compose and then three hyphens to get an em dash.

        • tal@lemmy.todayEnglish
          2·
          16 days ago

          The stuff there is a heck of a lot easier to input than memorizing numeric Unicode codepoints and using GTK’s control-shift-U thing that the parent post was suggesting.

          Emacs also can do that (C-\ u c s RET to enter ucs input method, and u 2 0 1 4 with that input method enabled), but it’s almost certainly not how you want to input oddball characters unless you’ve no other choice.

    • athairmor@lemmy.world
      2·
      16 days ago

      You don’t have type all of that. E.g. on iOS you type two dashes and it is automatically converted to an emdash.

  • puppinstuff@lemmy.caEnglish
    9·
    16 days ago

    I use em and en dashes according to traditional grammar rules. Been that way for years. It just looks and reads nicer. AI won’t take that from me.

  • Ænima@lemm.ee
    9·
    15 days ago

    Next you’re going to tell me using an Oxford comma is AI. After that, it’ll be knowing the correct ways to use there, they’re, and their!

      • Ænima@lemm.ee
        2·
        14 days ago

        Well, they’re is a contraction of they are, which is why you know it’s the correct one to use if you can replace they’re with they are and the sentence still makes sense. The word their is possessive so if you’re talking about someone or even something possessing something else, you would use their. There is in reference to something or somewhere else.

        I can’t remember the specific rules I was taught in school, but I still know the correct usage many years later.

        There was a snake over there, they’re trying to find it now, cause it isn’t native and none of our friends say it is their snake!

          • Ænima@lemm.ee
            2·
            13 days ago

            Don’t feel bad. Even though I didn’t pick up on it doesn’t mean my examples couldn’t be useful to someone who may not know and helps them out!

            If I could ask, how did you pick your Lemmy name? Does it mean something?

  • FundMECFS@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    8·
    16 days ago

    I love dashes – they help better convey the flow of my thinking in written form.

    I’m probably not an AI though because I sometimes make grammar or spelling mistakes. Since english isn’t my native language.

  • Emotional_Series7814@kbin.melroy.org
    7·
    15 days ago

    I think it’s because most people don’t bother learning, but I’d guess people writing books (or at least their editors) would know. AI eats up all the books and learns how to use em dashes. The majority of the internet-using population does not use it. And so you get the heuristic that em dash = AI. This is just a total guess, by the way.

    Looked up the difference between hyphens, em dashes, and en dashes in high school. Maybe for curiosity, maybe for some assignment, I forget by now. Started using em and en dashes, not going to stop now.

    • BussyGyatt@feddit.orgEnglish
      2·
      14 days ago

      more like it requires the use of an alt code, and humans aint got time for that shit in casual ‘speechtype.’ there’s literally nothing you can say with an emdash that a well-placed semicolon (and/or a few other tools) couldn’t solve with a slightly reconstructed sentence structure. if you’re using them, especially repeatedly within a couple paragraphs, you’re either: unusually resistant to the tedium and friction of breaking your stride to type alt 0151; writing formally; a bot. i’ll give you three guesses which is most likely.

      personally I’ve stopped using proper grammar and spelling and formal language and capitalization and whatnot as a sortof ‘proof of humanity.’ people who use em-dash in anything but formal writing are just self-flagging themselves as bots at this point. even in formal writing you better have yourself a robust edit log.

      • Emotional_Series7814@kbin.melroy.org
        2·
        13 days ago

        I do hope you believe I’m a human ;-; you can probably go check all my comments and notice the many edits on them, because I often remember a point I want to make or think of a way I can express myself better after the fact, and I never thought being the type who comments my thoughts immediately instead carefully revising and waiting an hour or so (although to be fair, who does that?) would be the one proof of my humanity. Well, hopefully. It’s entirely possible you still believe I must be a bot, because they have probably gotten good at mimicking humans, including professions to be human and not bots, given how many sci-fi stories are written with robots and humans interacting and proof being needed or whatever. (Wouldn’t know, don’t use them myself.)

        I typed from a phone. Creating an em dash is holding down on the hyphen button (which is already a bit of extra effort to get to) and sliding over two keys, pretty easy and fast. I just tested typing an em dash on my computer. I do not actually have an alt key due to being a Mac user (maybe newer ones or older ones have it?). For me, it’s Option+Shift+the hyphen key. It is slower to type an em dash for me than just a plain hyphen on both phone and computer, but not slow enough or irritating enough for me to make me choose not to. I feel my stubborn insistence on using em dashes, despite the disadvantage it gives me on getting perceived as a human being, could in itself be proof of my humanity, because what else do I gain besides a speck of affirmation of my identity as the type of person who still wants to use em dashes? Although of course only in this conversation, because most people who think me botlike would probably dismiss me as a bot and move on instead of replying to me and saying why they think I’m a bot: no chance to defend myself, and why would you let what you think to be a bot spew more slop at you about its supposed humanity? I’m also already comfortable using em dashes, maybe a fraction of a second wasted, whereas rewording my sentences, my train-of-thought run-on sentences typed straight from my stream of consciousness, to avoid em dashes is more effort for me, personally. Although you could make the argument that given my willingness to learn to do things the right way, I ought to type without run-on sentences and give people more of a signal I’m not a bot, and drop the em dashes so I am one less false negative when using the “em dash automatically equals bot” strategy.

        Not saying you think I specifically am a bot, of course ;) Your approach probably works too. I learned to type in your manner because people did it on tumblr and I used to use that site. Bots do lean towards more formal grammar correctness, but I wouldn’t write off the possibility of telling it to type informally, without capital letters, and with the occasional omission of punctuation when not needed for expression or clarity. Or straight up telling them to write like they are on tumblr. However, I would write off a human lazy enough to use a bot to impersonate people as not bothering to try to vary the typing styles.

        • BussyGyatt@feddit.orgEnglish
          2·
          13 days ago

          honestly this and the other comment have me second guessing. i was being awful windows centric.