Prompted by another thread about conscription in Ukraine.
When you’re being invaded.
When everyone is being drafted. Including the children of the oligarchs and political class.
Otherwise it’s never right. It’s just feeding the poor to the war machine.
So if for example every person’s name goes in the hat, and then conscripts are drawn at random? I only clarify because in a situation where every able body is fighting you’ve already lost, there needs to be logistics, maintaining utilities, growing food, etc
Drafts usually are of young men for the logistic reasons you mentioned.
So, if all men ages 18-24 are being drafted, the President’s kids should be first on the list.
In other words, if you’re going to send my son to war and you are president you need to send your’s first. Otherwise I’m telling my kid to dodge because his life isn’t worth less than some rich assholes.
I only clarify because in a situation where every able body is fighting you’ve already lost, there needs to be logistics, maintaining utilities, growing food, etc
Conscription is actually a way to ensure that. In the Ukrainian War, as well as at least the US during WW2 (I’m less familiar with other countries’ conscription systems during WW2), conscription is used to prioritize those with skills which are not economically vital during wartime - during WW2, even, some skilled workers weren’t even allowed to volunteer, much less be conscripted, for military service.
Examples of those skills?
Those working in industries vital to war production and agriculture.
Into 1943 voluntary enlistment for young men was disallowed to prevent those with valuable skillsets from going into the military.
Rich people are humans too and also have rights.
Subjecting rich people to the same violations of their rights doesn’t make the thing okay.
So, you’re saying conscription is always wrong? I’m certainly more okay with that then the idea that the poors should die to protect countries.
When the existence of your countries sovereignty is threatened.
Absolutely none whatsoever. Governmyth criminals have no right to tell me to go die for them. Go fuck yourselves.
None. It is never acceptable imho.
We do not choose where we are born or the social class we are born into. Forcing someone to sacrifice their life in the name of an entity they did not choose, likely have no/limited loyalty for, or might even be actively oppressed by - is wrong.
Like others have said defensive wars. But I also don’t take issues with a countries that have a brief compulsory service system in times of peace as a means of ensuring a large pool of qualified fighters without a large standing army.
None, if the people won’t voluntarily defend a nation, then they have decided it isn’t worth defending.
What if a person is willing to fight to defend only if others are going to do so as well.
I guess when the people being drafted have a higher likelihood of being killed by an invading army without the draft than with it. Tough to assess though.
Thanks for your thought. What about a situation where you know everyone won’t be killed, but the defeated country will no longer be democratic/open? In other words, you’ll live, but the quality of life will be much worse for the foreseeable future
That’s a tough one. There’s no obvious moral calculus to translate between lives lost and quality of life.
I tend to think drafting is similar to slavery—it’s a grave violation of basic human rights and should only be considered under the most extreme circumstances where the alternative is clearly worse.
It might depend on the exact nature of the authoritarian regime. Or maybe I’m just not comfortable with either outcome and so I don’t want to answer the question.
Defense of a country in the case of direct attack, or more complicatedly in the defense of an allied country in cases like NATO where all members consider an attack on any member as though it were an attack on them.
I will add the caveat though that not having a well funded, trained, and staffed military prior to hitting the conscription button is certainly a point in the column of incompetence if not unacceptable behavior.
Conscription, at least if you ask me, is acceptable if you benefit from the nation. If you live in a nation with a legal/healthcare system you cannot rely on, a social system that’s not equal opportunity, etc. then you could argue it’s wrong for them to draft you, but to those people who have their public sector serve them with high accommodations, yeah, go return the favor.
That’s an interesting take. What about a scenario where the nation as it stands doesn’t meet the requirements you outlined, but there’s clear indication the invading country would be worse?
I would still fight injustice but make it clear through my expression of doing so that I don’t support the current regime anymore than I otherwise would. Countries should consider themselves gratefully lucky the world accepts their existence and I’m not joining a collective just to be in a one-way relationship.
I didn’t see it yet, so I’ll say in a humanitarian crisis.
None.
I think that the exact measure of whether or not a war is justified is whether or not people are willing to fight it.
It’s very rare for a war to be a direct threat to the people. That’s generally only the case in a situation like Gaza, in which the invaders explicitly intend to not only take control of the land, but to kill or drive off the current inhabitants.
As a general rule, the goal is simply to assume control over the government, as is the case in Ukraine.
So the war is generally not fought to protect and/or serve the interests of the people directly, but to protect and/or serve the interests of the ruling class. And rather obviously, the ruling class has a vested interest in the people fighting to protect them and/or serve their interests. But the thing is that the people do not necessarily share that interest.
And that, IMO, is exactly why conscription is always wrong. If the people do not feel a need to protect and/or serve the interests of the rulers, then that’s just the way it is. That choice rightly belongs to the people - not to the rulers.
As a general rule, the goal is simply to assume control over the government, as is the case in Ukraine.
Yeah no, that’s just plain wrong. Russia, at the very least, is committing cultural genocide if not much worse. Ukrainian families get broken up so their kids can be better indoctrinated.
If 100% of a country’s military-eligible people vote for it, then it’s okay.
