- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.zip
- google@lemdro.id
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.zip
- google@lemdro.id
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The problem with Web Standards is that they’re so complete, broad and complex that it’s very hard as an independent team to get started writing a browser.
You’d have so little daily active users compared to the titans products (Chromium, Gecko, WebKit) that even if you made something super good, it would still be hard to guarantee website compatibility without faking the user-agents.
There’s also a lot of complexity involved in writing a sandbox for every instance of a website (tabs or iframe) and sharing information between multiple process. I don’t know how they do it in Chrome, but in Firefox they have a whole specification language for that which compiles to C++.
You also have to recreate the DevTools and other tooling for developers to adopt your browser and for you to debug any issues with your DOM renderer…
I love how much the web has to offer nowadays with technologies like WebRTC, WebSocket, Blobs, GamePad API, modern CSS3 but it has also the effect of locking us down into a tiny ecosystem.
I really their should be legislation on what companies can do with their browser because they’ve become such an important piece of the internet so they should serve public good.
I don’t know how to make it happen and I don’t even know if it’s a good idea when you consider the governance issues it would bring for open-source project.
I’m really passionate about this technology !
Unfortunately, there are only 3 companies developing browsers right now: Google, Apple and Mozilla.
Apple’s browsers are only available on Apple platforms. In fact, if you’re on iOS you have no choice, you have to use Safari. Even browsers labelled as “Chrome” or “Firefox” are actually Safari under the hood on iOS. But, on any non Apple platform, you can’t use Safari.
Google is an ad company, so they don’t want to allow ad blockers on their browser. So, it’s a matter of time before every kind of ad blocking is disabled for Chrome users.
Firefox is almost entirely funded by Google, so there’s a limit as to what they can do without the funding getting cut off. They seem to be trying to find a way forward without Google, but the result, if anything is as bad as Google if not worse:
“investing in privacy-respecting advertising to grow new revenue in the near term; developing trustworthy, open source AI to ensure technical and product relevance in the mid term;”
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/mozilla-leadership-growth-planning-updates/
All these other browser people like are basically reskinned versions of Chrome or Firefox. They have a handful of people working on them. To actually develop a modern browser you need a big team. A modern browser basically has to be an OS capable of running everything from a 3d game engine, to a word processor, to a full featured debugger.
It looks like it’s only a matter of time before there will be 0 browsers capable of blocking ads, because the only two companies that make multi-platform browsers depend on ads for their revenue, and both of them will have enormous expenses because they’re obsessed with stupid projects like AI.
It looks like it’s only a matter of time before there will be 0 browsers capable of blocking ads[.]
I don’t know if I’d take it that far. Firefox and the Chrome engine are open source projects. Anyone can modify the browser to enable ad-blocking in some form if a user is sufficiently determined. Now, will it be possible to write and distribute a popular an effective adblocker under these conditions? It appears to be getting harder.
Firefox and the Chrome engine are open source projects. Anyone can modify the browser to enable ad-blocking in some form if a user is sufficiently determined.
Technically, sure. But, these are extremely complex software products, and it would be one hobbyist vs. an entire software division of a trillion dollar company who are determined to make sure you see ads.
Vivaldi on Linux and Windows is still good in my experience, and so far uBlock Origin for manifest v2 still works. I hope they keep v2 support forever, forking completely if they must.
Use an alternative chromium based browser?
Don’t use chromium?
I switched to Firefox the morning they disabled uBlock Origin.
I never left Firefox. It’s a fantastic browser.
Meanwhile ublock origin works fine in Fennec/Firefox Android.
Chrome? A browser that’s easily replaceable with any other browser? Huh… Didn’t see that one coming.
/S
I’m saying this as a 2 year convert Firefox user: mostly easily replaceable. Sure, I can browse pretty much every page that I can on chrome. However, a few sites don’t work the same way - sometimes because of the site’s conscious decision, sometimes because of Firefox.
Take Facebook, for example. On desktop, I can’t make voice calls anymore from the desktop site. For a while it was possible with non encrypted chats, but now pretty much all of them are encrypted, and FF is not compatible with that. I also can’t watch h265 videos in my chats anymore. I’m still sticking with FF, but I just can’t easily say that FF is just as good for everything (I’m still not going back to chrome).
Yeah I’m a 20-some year FF user and when it started you had to have IE as a backup because not everything was compatible. In the late 2000s through late 2010s everything worked everywhere, then with chromes dominance places have stopped testing or supporting certain things in FF and it feels like history is repeating itself. Unfortunately you need a chromium-based backup realistically for certain sites, but 99.5% of things work totally fine in FF.
A lot of websites are broken on Firefox which is a shame. I can’t even scroll down on some news sites. What a shame…
This might be the fault of your ublock filters rather than Firefox. Do you have a cookie banner filter list? Some websites are blocking scrolling until you make a cookie decision. A short disable of ublock, rejecting the cookies should then work. The “downside” of a powerful ad blocker
Agreed, I’ve never come across a site that was broken because of Firefox. Usually the culprit is adblock being too good at blocking, so just toggle it off and refresh and page loads just fine.
LibreWolf if you want security, privacy and freedom
If you’re still using Chrome, do yourself a favour and install Firefox.
Let’s be honest: Everything that might be “worse” or “annoying” in Firefox for someone is not relevant in comparison to “no working adblocker available”. A browser without adblock is unusable
I haven’t actually found anything that doesn’t work on Firefox on my personal computer. At work we also use Firefox, and some things don’t work on it, but some things don’t work on chrome or edge either, it’s a hodge poge.
True, but if an adblocker no longer works on a specific browser, change your browser! I started using Netscape back in '94, and lost count on how many browsers I’ve tested and used in the past… Holy shit, 30+ years!!
Mosaic was awesome. Netscape 1 was pretty cool, but Netscape 2 and animated gifs… zowie! That was a day to remember.
30+ years!
…fuck off, '94 wasn’t 30… counts on fingers several times
…Shit…
It doesn’t sound right but it is. I think in ‘94 I was using Juno for email and internet. Shortly after that it was time to actually use one of the many AOL trial discs for service instead of a mini frisbee/ninja star.
Modem sounds, chat rooms, you’ve got mail. What a time to live!
Fuck. I got free internet for almost 5 years. So many AOL discs. 01, 02? Friend’s dad had a T1 connection put into their house for his work. The difference between T1 and the 56k I had at home? At home walk out the room, have a smoke, maybe ⅔ a boob loaded. At buddy’s house, that’s when I realised that the internet had the potential to change everything. Whole boob before you could even stand up.
Kids these days. No appreciation for how much struggle it used to be. Everything just. Just there. No bork the only computer in the house because boob.exe.
I know… Jurassic Park is 33 years this year. It would be like watching a movie from the 60’ when it was released.
We’re old, friend.
I’ve never hated my life more than right now…
I use Palemoon for the nostalgia but also because of the best theme around, Moonscape
Netscape will forever be my number one.
In the past 10 years it’s pretty much just been Firefox, Safari, Explorer/Edge, and Chrome. 99% of browsers are just skinned Chrome. Even Edge now. Opera’s engine died in 2013.
99% if browsers are just skinned Chrome.
Yup. Hence, the reason I originally suggested to use Firefox, only because it’s not built on Chromium.
Hence, the reason I originally suggested to use Firefox
Just FYI, the word “hence” literally means “for this reason”. So you just said “for this reason the reason” lol.
Chill dude, I’m just going to the ATM machine to put in my PIN number to take out some money. 🤙
Chrome uses WebKit, safaris engine.
Chrome forked Webkit in 2012 to create Blink. It is reasonable to assume they have somewhat diverged since.
Ahhh TIL
They’re developed separately. It’s a hard fork so I consider them different.
That’s also hugely in part because Apple develops Webkit at a snails pace. Some say they gimp their own rendring engine so that it isn’t competitive with native applications from the App Store. This way, there’s less incentive for developers to make web-apps to avoid the 30% app store tax.
Man I haven’t been around that long but I feel like some of my knowledge is outdated and I have to start with “a long time ago in a galaxy far far away” because I stopped paying attention
What issues do people even have with firefox? Its a browser, it seems fast enough. Isn’t that all most people need from a browser
Mainly that Google intentionally makes its sites (like YouTube or Google Docs) slower and less useable when they detect you’re using Firefox, and/or ad blockers (which you need Firefox to use, so same difference).
It’s mostly fixable with add-ons and userscripts (and eventually, one hopes, with an antitrust lawsuit), but it’s still a hassle.
Unfortunately, with the FTC rolling back net neutrality protections, I don’t see an antitrust lawsuit happening, or succeeding, anytime soon
how do I find out more about this and what scripts do I need to make the sites faster again on Firefox
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/youtube-responds-to-delayed-loading-in-rival-browser-complaints, for instance.
Or https://www.zdnet.com/article/former-mozilla-exec-google-has-sabotaged-firefox-for-years/, for an older one.
As for how to fix it, Mozilla tend to do a pretty good job of eventually working around Google’s bullshit, so keeping the browser updated is a good first step.
Since Google tends to roll this stuff out regionally and doing A/B testing, though, the best way is to identify what specific handicap they’re hassling you with (which specific features don’t work or don’t work right, when they work properly on chrome), and look for an updated add on or userscript to fix that particular issue.
Or you can just look for a generic YouTube or Google Docs “enhancer” add on and hope it fixes the issue without making the whole user experience too different from what you’re used to.
thanks. I keep Firefox updated. the fact that changing the user agent gets the delay is pretty damning evidence
Would you happen to know whether this is something that a UserAgent spoofer would suffice to get around?
At one particular point it was, if I recall correctly, though Chrome also (mis)implements some standards its own way, so Google might also use that as a form of attack against anyone who implements them properly, much like Microsoft did in the bad old IE6 days…
It’s all a silly arms race, though, with Google coming up with new ways to enshittify the web for anyone not using Chrome or using ad blockers and Mozilla and ad blocker (and alternative YouTube frontend) developers trying to figure out what they broke this time and how to fix it, so what worked yesterday might not work today and work again tomorrow.
It’s all a profoundly stupid waste of everyone’s time and resources (all for a few more ad views) which will hopefully end up with Google losing their monopoly position on the web like the Internet Explorer bullshit did for Microsoft, but will keep being a major hassle for everyone until it does.
I very much dislike Mozilla’s direction over the last decade. They’re introducing user-hostile features that subtly break normal browsing experience, even when disabled[0]. Not like Google is better, but I’m also trying to get away from Mozilla.
[0] On Firefox Mobile, there’s a “feature” which makes the address bar auto-complete domains of companies paying Mozilla. I noticed this with Netflix - I never visit, but when I start writing a URL with n, roughly every 10th time Netflix was suggested. You can disable this feature, but this doesn’t actually disable it. The address bar no longer auto-completes with Netflix, instead it just doesn’t autocomplete! So 9/10 times I can write n and press Enter, but 1/10 times I press n and search for the letter n.
Mozilla doesn’t care whether they break features, as long as they can make more money. I strongly dislike this approach by the supposedly “good” browser manufacturer.
Do you have a good non chromium based alternative? To be clear I genuinely am asking those things make switching probably worth it considering how little of a hassle it is.
Sadly not, I’d also be interested in one!
isn’t chromium under the Linux foundation now? Might look at the options on that side.
No, it’s still 100% owned and 100% controlled by Google.
The Linux Foundation is just making it easier for people outside of Google to submit work to it.
Cynically, you could say that Google is just trying to get free contributions while retaining all the control. Optimistically you could say this is the first step in Google giving up control of Chromium in the far future, although currently they’ve given zero verbal or written indicators that they plan to do that.
GNOME Web if on Linux
This comment made me look into if KDE has one and apparently they do it even has built in ad blocking.
Off to compile for 3 hours. /j
Makes me remember when I used Konqueror with FF as a fallback before Chrome existed.
Download fennec it’s the fork of ff mobile with less of the cruft.
I don’t know if it has fixed that specific problem, but I can’t recall seeing it
Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll give it a try!
See also Mull, No 120hz though.
Mull was part of the DIvestOS project, which has recently been discontinued.
For a similarly strengthened fork, I’ve been using IronFox after seeing it recommended on Lemmy.
Also, I don’t think one can export bookmarks from Android Firefox either.
No horizontal tab grouping. Tab groups on Chrome are perfect, and the Firefox tab extensions all suck in comparison.
That said, I’m still using Firefox today because the internet is unusable without a good ad blocker.
I still use the full screen tab groups feature that they removed from the core. I don’t like scrolling tabs, so I can just hit a button and click on the exact tab I want. I do probably have too many tabs open tbh.
Tab groups and vertical tabs are at least on Nightly now; you can enable them in settings.
Some js is a bit slower. I typically use chrome for self hosted apps, jupyter etc.
I think wasm performance is actually better in Firefox though.
I have no idea either. Sure, chrome is a little faster but its a minor difference in my opinion. Been using it for a long time and have no idea why it’s so unpopular.
Also, keep in mind, google has been caught slowing Firefox down in YouTube before. So if you notice any slowness in their services, it’s fair to suspect it might not be Firefox’s fault.
Was
Isa little faster.No way it stays that way after blocking ad-blocking. Some websites genuinely take over 30s without ad block.
I advocate Firefox, but I must admit I personally am affected by regular crashes on Firefox desktop. Mostly when I enter a page I haven’t visited before (randomly though).
I don’t know if others are affected by this, and I still recommend Firefox regardless, but every crash leaves a sour taste in my mouth. As it is not widespread, it might just be my setup, but still.
If you have the time try the troubleshoot mode to help figure it out - add ons are often the cause
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/troubleshoot-firefox-crashes-closing-or-quitting
Thats really weird. I have never personally had the issue but it is more and fair enough to have issues with FF after that. I would recommend brave then, still chromium based but is actively doing things to make sure their adblock still works.
I dont have issues with FF in general which would cause me to stop using it, while it is frustrating, not using something chromium based still outweighs that heavily. Its kinda of a matter of principle to me. E: clarification
In Australia it won’t save card details. And it can’t natively create app shortcuts for things like Gmail, keep, whatsapp etc.
I put up with it but it’s a pain compared to chrome and edge.
Firefox-based https://zen-browser.app/ if you want to get fancy
Thanks for this!! I became spoiled with Arc’s UI, but it’s a Chrome based browser. This looks like it’s the same experience without the bs.
Yeah. Zen is a bit newer and I’d say not quite as slick an experience yet, but it has come a long way in the last couple months and is getting very good
It’s a good thing I stayed loyal to Firefox. Mainly due to my dislike of change lol, but I was forced to use Chrome and it felt ominous with its owner being Google.
What is everyone’s thoughts on duckduckgo browser? I’m on grapheme os and have always used Firefox on my desktop
Why not use Firefox for android too?
duckduckgo browser is based on Chromium (as nearly every other “alternative” browser is) and therefore will use Manifest v3 and neuter uBlock.
I still find it interesting that the Vanadium browser in Grapheneos is Chromium based, with no possibility of extensions. I know this is for security reasons but it feels odd to still use chrome on my phone and Firefox everywhere else.
I just use a Firefox derivative there as well, because of Ublock. Tried Vanadium but the adblocking was just not good.
Which one are you using? I was looking at ironfox
Fennec right now, switched before Ironfox was out and now switching would be painful as there is no export, so all manual…
go to brave, chrome has been pretty anti-adblock for a while. chromium might have a problem since it uses chrome store for extensions.
Brave is just Chrome with added crypto and homophobia
Brave is full of adverts for crypto and is owned by a homophobe
Brave has investments from A16Z, a VC fund that has been involved in multiple pump and dumps and shoes founders are fundamentally opposed to democracy and human rights.
It’s still the Chromium browser. Same problems, but now at the mercy of two corporations that are looking to turn a profit.
