Australia’s Mona asked a court to reverse its ruling that allowed men inside a women’s only space.
Archived version: https://archive.ph/oHT6U
There shouldn’t be such thing as gender x only spaces. Or race, or sexuality. The women aren’t wrong about their points, but that doesn’t make it an acceptable or thankfully, legal thing to do. I’m sure the guy who sued them did it for all the wrong reasons though. Both sides seem a bit slimy.
I didn’t read into this particular issue, but I know the museum in question, have been there a couple times, so some context:
- it was founded by some eccentric multi millionaire, who basically just does whatever he wants. The museum was originally free for everyone, until eventually he realised he was draining money really fast, so now it’s only free for locals.
- the museum changes it’s “theme” somewhat frequently. One time I was there the whole place looked like a grocery store, and the stairs to the actual museum was like hidden away in part of the store.
- the museum seems to thrive on getting strong reactions from people. Much of the art inside is quite shocking or provocative. They have an app where you can rate how much you like each artwork, and apparently they actively remove artworks which are too universally liked.
So it doesn’t surprise me at all that the museum is trying to be women only, but I really doubt it will be permanent, and I suspect that the strong public reactions is exactly the point.
I kind of suspected this. Usually forseeble controversy like this is a ploy, especially with art and art spaces.
Depends on how much money the exhibit draws. Iirc the Wall of Vaginas was supposed to be temporary but it’s still up as far as I know.
I’m all for segregation spaces as long as essential spaces are open to all such as hospitals, parks etc. There are women only gyms where I am and I used to go to them because I felt safer and more comfortable.
This is a slippery slope to things you wouldn’t want to be excluded from, if this appeal wins and creates precident to make much worse places. Thinking this is a feminist battle is narrow minded, selfish, and will absolutely backfire.
But the idea is that everyone can open their own and run it by the rules they want. If you or a group don’t like how one thing is run, there is freedom to open up the same thing but make it open for all. This museum is a private one, rather than run by the government, and therefore they can do what they like. The government ones should be open to all because they are elected by the public.
I’m not at all in favour of forcing everyone to comply to uniformity for the sake of inclusivity but I’m all for ensuring that there are spaces available that are inclusive and that there’s freedom to operate how you like, provided that it doesn’t hurt anyone.
Antidiscrimination law apply everywhere, regardless whether it’s government or public or private. Otherwise America would still have Jim Crow. The laws that stop that stop this too, for the same reason. Discrimination is wrong, full stop. I don’t give a fuck if women want their own spaces, be my guest, but barring people you don’t want and then crying about it is moronic.
I’ve been to lesbian bars with my sister and even though my sister is gay, I got glared at, got scoffs, and sighs. I could tell I wasn’t wanted. It kinda pissed me off, but whatever, I was there to drink with my sister and have fun. Imagine if that was a women only bar and my sister couldn’t bring me. Then imagine all the other lesbian bars my sister wanted to bring me too (because she liked them!) were the same. You get my point. I don’t want to live in that world. Some people do and I say, fuck those nearsighted fools.
Right. I see it similar to flavours. What if regulation stipulated that you needed to have food that everyone could eat? Nothing spicy. Must have meat options at veg restaurants etc. just so that no one would be discriminated against when they went out to eat. You’d miss out on different cultures, opportunities for innovation etc. Variety would die.
So, for context, I’m from Australia and familiar with the exact museum in this article. This museum is known for putting forward very provocative art. For example, there is a wall of plaster mould vaginas and they have a soap in the shape of a vagina called ‘Cunt on a rope’. Last time I was there, they had violent and sexual imagery (with warnings outside the entry). This exhibit is par for the course for MONA. The owner is rich enough to drag the court case to the highest level but the intent has been achieved. It got people talking.
Next we can half separate but equal water fountains for coloreds and whites.
I would consider water fountains to be part of public infrastructure and essential, and therefore doesn’t fit into the model that I’m putting forward.
I’m not proposing that essential things like roads, water etc. are segregated but, rather, private businesses can choose how they operate. The risk is public backlash and hurting the bottom line and other businesses can choose to be open and accepting.
For example, queer bars vs het bars. It’s not segregated per se, but a business can choose how they want to operate to draw in the customers they want.
From now on, men have decided to declare every build and every bridge, build by men, to be men only. Build your own stuff please. /s
Infrastructure is, and should be, government run so that wouldn’t work with the model I’m proposing.
So there shouldn’t be girls’ locker rooms either?
Why do we need girls locker rooms when we’ve had the technology for mixed gender locker rooms for generations? We call them doors and use them even in single gender bathrooms.
Certainly it’s inappropriate for sexual predators to be able to leer at girls or women, but there I also no need to have a lack of privacy from those of the same gender, if that’s what people wish.
Locker rooms are a little different than bathrooms.
But who was nuance 🤔
You know that’s exactly what they think.
deleted by creator
I disagree. I love my men-only spaces.
Well isn’t that about some hypocritical shit?!
From the article…
“The lounge, which contains some of the museum’s most-acclaimed works - from Picasso to Sidney Nolan - has been closed to the public since the court’s order.”
Both Pablo Picasso and Sidney Nolan were both men!
If they’re gonna play that ‘women only’ card, then they should remove all works created by men and move them to a proper open museum.
The amount of people/men who don’t get it is astonishing. Art isn’t just something you can put on a wall. This entire thing with excluding men is an art installation, supposed to generate emotions and a discussion about exclusion and gender disparity. And seeing how many men around the world are frothing at the mouth over an installation at a small museum at the end of the world it is an extremely powerful piece of art. I applaud the museum for this.
There are still places that are men only. Women can’t join the freemasons for example, but you don’t see this sort of extremely angry reaction to that.
And I agree, this art piece is doing exactly what it was supposed to.
Huh. Let women into the Freemasons, I guess?
That’d be ideal, but I don’t really see that happening tbh. There’s a women’s version of the freemasons, but it’s not nearly as popular or active as far as I can tell.
Do you have any more examples other than the freemasons? I had assumed we were done with needless segregation (excluding bathrooms and such).
The only thing that makes sense in my mind is that male dominated spaces have non-explicit social barriers in place that are being approximated by the explicit barrier the museum has set up.
In the UK there’s golf clubs that have pretty toxic atmospheres and dress codes but aren’t legally allowed to bar women.
Sorry if this is super ignorant, I’m acknowledging the problem I just want to understand it better
I’m from the US, but here it’s mostly fraternal lodges that still ban women, and certain religious groups(which I don’t think those technically count due to separation of church and state). But the Order of Oddfellows, Fraternal Order of Eagles, Freemasons, and the Botherhood of St Andrew don’t initiate women. Im sure theres more but i dont know about them.
Granted those have some religious influence, but aren’t churches directly as far as I understand. Also the skull and bones, but they’re very secretive and that could have changed and no one would be the wiser.I’m not sure about other countries laws, but in the US private institutions are more or less allowed to segregate by gender, but often there’s backlash and they lose money so most won’t go there. That’s why it’s mostly these secretive fraternal orders that still do it.
Thank you! I wasn’t expecting such a long and well written response 😁
Np! Always happy to have a civil discussion! and thank you for asking your question in good faith
You’re applauding a troll for trolling successfully?
I appreciate some good trolling that doesn’t actually harm anyone. And in this case it also certainly generated discussion, so I’d say it’s more than trolling anyway.
Intent matters. If all you just want is to piss off people, that’s trolling. I don’t see this being the point here.
That is the artist’s explicitly intended point.
No, it is really not. There’s an intent behind the outrage.
“The men are experiencing Ladies Lounge, their experience of rejection is the artwork,” she said.
The purpose is for men to suffer and be upset. That’s what this of art is, really - human suffering for its own sake. It’s quintessential trolling, which the artist has been quite open about.
Yeah, well my late father was a painter, and his number one rule was that he didn’t paint stuff to be hidden away. One of his last wishes was to make sure people see his artworks.
It’s up to the people that view his works as to their thoughts and opinions.
You’re right, but to play devil’s advocate; that’s extremely unintuitive and took me to my 20s to figure out
Well, the mean age here seems to be over 30, so I’d expect a tad more maturity.
“Maturity”, defined as being willing to accept explicit sex discrimination, so long as said discrimination penalizes men (as men are an acceptable target for discrimination)?
If that’s still the hill you wanna die on, please.
“I was an asshole as a work of art, not because I am an asshole”
You’re doing the thing the artist intended lol
Point is, art is art, and a museum is a museum. Anyone mature enough should be allowed to enter any museum they want and view whatever exhibits they want.
That gender specific crap can and does end up going both ways. And it shouldn’t be that way, anywhere.
In a world where there are millions of men who actually believe women are advantaged over men in today’s society, it’s interesting to see the international uproar occurring over this single exhibit that made that belief actually true. A single exhibit at a sex museum in Tasmania that’s literally about gender discrimination.
And I find this funny, but in the sad way ☹️
Folks trying to fight sexual discrimination with sexual discrimination… 🤦♂️
Those that dispute, fight and argue about such things that way don’t even seem to realize that they’re just contributing to the problem.
I just have to completely disagree. Art has consistently served to challenge the status quo and provoke thought and discussion, and this exhibit has absolutely excelled in that regard.
Now the artist is moving on to explore existing discrimination exemptions under the law in Tasmania:
In fact the Lounge already possesses many of the redeeming qualities listed in the verdict that would make it eligible for an exemption under section 27 of the Anti-Discrimination Act 1998 (Tas). Where it isn’t already eligible, a number of minor adjustments should bring us into compliance.
The law states that a person may discriminate on the ground of gender:
(a) in a religious institution, if it is required by the doctrines of the religion of the institution; or
(b) in education, if it is for the purpose of enrolment in one-gender schools or hostels; or
© in employment, if it is for the purpose of the residential care of persons under the age of 18 years; or
(d) in employment, if it is based on a genuine occupational qualification or requirement in relation to a particular position; or
(e) in accommodation, if it is shared accommodation for less than 5 adult persons; or
(f) in the provision or use of facilities, if those facilities are reasonably required for use by persons of one gender only.
Interviewer: You believe the artwork can continue to operate under a legal exemption? Which of these exemptions will apply?
All of them.
https://mona.net.au/blog/2024/05/interview-with-kirsha-kaechele-about-the-ladies-lounge
Quoting the law doesn’t make the laws right in any regard. I’m pretty sure that if you asked Picasso, if he were alive of course, that he would heavily protest the discrimination and encourage anyone mature enough to view his works.
Same typically goes for almost any artist. They didn’t go through the trouble of creating the art only to end up with others saying who does or doesn’t get to view it.
Matter of fact, did Picasso or any of the other artists leave a will? Or for any of the artists that might still be alive or with living descendants, do they get a word in about it?
They should.
She’s not saying the law is right…
Also Picasso was a renowned chauvinist and misogynist who had affairs with teenagers as a 70 year old and put out a cigarette on the cheek of the mother of two of his children
in a religious institution, if it is required by the doctrines of the religion of the institution
How’s she planning to have this law apply? Create a woman-only sect of the FSM?
I recommend you read the interview I linked above, she goes into great detail about this and frankly it’s amazing
Picasso was a massive misogynist, too. I haven’t any idea who Nolan is.
It didn’t take me long to research into Sidney Nolan, but at the same time I do have more and more reason by the day to doubt historical facts found online… 🤷♂️
If they’re gonna play that ‘women only’ card, then they should remove all works created by men and move them to a proper open museum.
Why?
That was a sarcastic thought meant to make people think.
What they really should do is like not discriminate. It’s a museum, every person mature enough, men and women, should be welcome to go view whatever artwork and exhibits they have.
This BBC World article covers how the artist brought the artwork into the courthouse:
Tuesday started with a large group of women dressed in navy power suits, clad in pearls and wearing red lipstick marching into the hearing to support Ms Kaechele.
As the parties sparred, the museum’s supporters were somewhat stealing the spotlight. They had periods of complete stillness and silence, before moving in some kind of subtle, synchronised dance - crossing their legs and resting their heads on their fists, clutching their hearts, or peering down their spectacles. One even sat there pointedly flipping through feminist texts and making notes.
After (Judge) Grueber reserved his decision for a later date, which is yet to be determined, the museum’s posse left as conspicuously as it came in - dancing out of the building in a conga line as one woman played ‘Simply Irresistible’ by Robert Palmer off her iPhone.
Ms Kaechele has indicated she’ll fight the case all the way to the Supreme Court if needed, but she says - ironically - that perhaps nothing could drive the point of the artwork home more than having to shut it down.
“If you were just looking at it from an aesthetic standpoint, being forced to close would be pretty powerful.”
Also want to cite an interview with the artist:
As the hugely influential gender theorist Judith Butler argues, gender is a performative construct. To which I’d add: so is the legal system.
Interviewer: Do you mean to say that you think the judge might have been contributing to the art?
I can’t be certain that his ruling isn’t performance. His judge-like ‘comportment’ in the court, the flourish of his language in the ruling … He’s clearly a man interested in art. In his ruling, he compares me to Caravaggio—a great artist but he also murdered someone. I just served ladies champagne.
What about trans women? Will they be pushed out?
Yeah this is a reason I think this is dumb. Who decides what a woman is here? Australia doesn’t even have bathroom laws discriminating against trans people as far as I know. How do they enforce this, by just telling people who they think look too much like a man to leave? By asking for their ID and only allowing in people who legally changed their gender?
Women’s safe spaces are important. This is not how to do it.
Is this the intent of the artist? Are they making a statement about gender identity? Was the baseless discrimination the art all along? This specific article doesn’t make it clear to me, but maybe I missed something.
Reverse misogyny? misandry is the word your looking for author.
Those are excluded and you know it. Don’t be a pain in the ass.
Men about “gentlemens’ clubs” and other shit:
I used to work at a strip club. Every body is more than welcome.
Lesbians frequently came in, but also straight girls and I couldn’t tell you why.
So shut it.EDIT: IN USA, “GENTLEMAN’S CLUB” = STRIP CLUB. I’m keeping this post for posterity. Miscommunication!
What? I’m talking about actual men’s clubs where women weren’t allowed or wanted, until they were because you couldn’t have exclusionary rules like that
Hmmm. In America, “gentleman’s clubs” is what people call strip clubs. I apologize for the aggressive language, I misunderstood.
No worries, a poor choice of term from my part
brb gonna change my private school’s status to a urinal because I believe that women’s place is at home and therefore they shouldn’t get any education. For a good a good measure, I’ll do the same to the office building, the driving school, and the airline I own.
The point is to draw attention to the stupid laws and get it fixed. The initial premise is shocking and I can understand that it’s upsetting, and it’s okay to feel that way. No judgements here.
Just channel that anger towards the correct target
I know that it’s a rage-bait. I just looked up the shit they do in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia and threw some together for the defenders of gender segregation to see. Thought I was replying to someone so it’d be clear, but oh well, my fish memory.
They really really want to be gender exclusionary lmao
