American “Libertarians” consider liberty as self-sufficiency, not just freedom from a government, but from being required to contribute to society as a whole.
Also, their liberty to exploit you for profit.
It’s not really about liberty, it’s about freedom from taxes and consequences. They don’t get far enough in the reasoning to understand that they would benefit.
Don’t forget lowering the age of consent
Libertarianism is just values free Capitalism.
Capitalism has always been values free
…and it co-opts and usurps other value systems.
NAP is a value.
It’s a theory that in reality already mostly doesn’t exist. You can hire a range of body guards, personal security people, bounty hunters, and self-proclaimed bad asses to fuck people up.
…the more money you have the more connected you are, the more stuff like that you can do.
NAP is a theory that requires people with money “respect” rather than chilling in the forts they’ve already built in this system, let alone a more free market one.
NAP is a pipedream Libertarians have circle jerks about but like most of their theories would be utter vaporware in practice.
What would happen in the 5 most murderous states in Mexico, or in Haiti, if everyone there had a machine gun?
Would the rich and powerful carry themselves with as much swagger as they do now?
This is all besides the point. Libertarianism is values free Capitalism, and NAP is a pipedream.
Capitalism usurps all values other than profit. It’s toxic.
Is libertarianism synonymous with capitalism?
What values are devoid of profiting?
If say, a socialist argued that the average Russian in 1960 was better off than in 1880, and while technology played a positive role, so did the political system, then wt:thon would be arguing that socialism—at least that variant—has profited the average Russian more than monarchy—at least that variant.
and please answer the questions in my previous post, regardless on how it’s probable that neither of us have enough information and knowledge to answer something so hypothetical, with a great amount of authority.
I’m not here for you. I was here for the original topic.
But I’m 20 and healthy, why should I have to pay for healthcare for mrs. sickey over there? Did she even try being born without a chronic illness? Doubt it.
Because eventually you will be old and sick. It’s short sighted not to consider that.
Because (so-called) “libertarians” aren’t.
The term “libertarian” has been hijacked in the anglophone-world (starting in the US, of course) to essentially just mean “fundamentalist capitalist” - they are right-wingers who have been immunized from reality and mindlessly support only “liberty” as it applies to private corporations and their interests. Therefore, it shouldn’t surprise anyone that you can find these (so-called) “libertarians” anywhere you find neo-nazis and the KKK.
In the non-anglophone world, the term libertarian still holds it’s original meaning - a socialist… or, more specifically, an anarchist.
It does seem to now mean “people that don’t want to pay their taxes”.
I can’t think of anything more spoilt and privileged than taxes being the only thing you have to whine about.
“Libertarian” became popular in the US when it started being incorporated into various science fiction novels. Probably the most famous is “The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.” I love the book as science fiction, but the society the author creates depends on so many caveats that even the author has the old style ‘free’ system fall apart as soon as an actual government [as opposed to prison regulations] is formed.
“Libertarian” became popular in the US when it started being incorporated into various science fiction novels.
They got their que from right-wing economic grifters like Rothbard and Hayek - people whose beliefs wouldn’t be out of place in Nazi Germany. That’s why olden days US sci-fi writing was a festering hole of fascism - nothing else could have produced people like Heinlein.
Heinlein was a huge friend to Philip K. Dick, and any number of Jewish science fiction writers. He was one of the first writers to have an African woman as a hero, one of the first to have a transman character. Stop using the word ‘fascist’ for anyone on the Right. It dilutes the term.
and any number of Jewish science fiction writers.
And?
He was one of the first writers to have an African woman
And?
one of the first to have a transman character.
Again… and?
Stop using the word ‘fascist’ for anyone on the Right. It dilutes the term.
All right-wingers walk the same path. If you write fascist drivel, you are a fascist. Heinlein was a fascist. Stop making excuses for him.
And then you wonder why the Left loses pretty much every election.
What left, liberal?
Exactly my point.
Call me when you actually win an election.
How many socialistic writers wrote sci-fi that included Africans and the TG?
Was it back when Stalin outlawed homosexuality and allying with Hitler?
Plenty.
Could you name me one?
I got mine from the Libertarian party, a few decades ago.
They didn’t seem too fascistic back then.
Of course they didn’t, eh? Of course.
They didn’t wear brown, black, or blue uniforms.
They wore no uniforms.
One seemed to like Dead Kennedy’s and Black Flag.
They didn’t wear brown, black, or blue uniforms.
Most fascists don’t.
One seemed to like Dead Kennedy’s and Black Flag.
And up until very recently a whole bunch of them thought Rage Against The Machine was theirs, too.
They seem most powerful in uniform—I guess that’s what helps ties those little sticks together into their mighty hammer, FWIW.
I don’t like Rage Against the Machine.
Part of it is musical, I suppose.
Part of it is they support tankies and a group that massacred indigenous peasants in Peru.
Libertarians: maximum freedom for everyone!
Everyone: what about healthcare?
Libertarians: you’re free to die in a gutter!
Used to think I was libertarian. But now I think it’s too absolute of an ideal to be any good for humanity. I definitely think free healthcare, housing, food, and education should be guarenteed for everyone.
Your comment precisely expresses my attitude. When it came up i used to say that I was fiscally conservative and social liberal. A Libertarian.
But the older I get the more I realize that Libertarianism isn’t the fiction of Atlas Shrugged. There are many people of great worth that cannot be Dagny Taggart or Howard Roark.
Rand failed to take into account that the allure of increasing wealth subverts many bright creators into becoming resource vampires that in turn become oppressors. Ayn Rand would have loved Mark Zuckerberg’s rise through intelligence and hard work, but what would she think of what he’s ultimately built and what it’s done to society?
Real people aren’t as altruistic has her characters.
I think we read different books if you think her characters were altruistic. I remember her specifically calling out altruism as a sin (compared to the virtue of selfishness).
Atlas Shrugged will be the Malleus Maleficarum of the 2100s onward.
…if you want to be an Egoist fine no problem read Stirner and exorcise some spooks.
Rand and her husband ended up taking welfare.
cant say i trust her ideas if she cant stick by them.
She defended this by saying that it was thejr money that had been taken from her by force and, therefore, she was entitled to getting it back.
Its a cop out. She added little to society other than justification for the rich cunts to profiteer and lord over the many.
Her books are treated with scepticism in academia, what has she really done other than prop up a few insidious think tanks?
Edit: not argumentive btw sorry if I come of that way
I agree. The world requires way to much subtlety to function well for everyone for single truth ideas and ways of doing things to work at large scales.
Libertarians only care about 2 things: lowest taxes possible and legal weed, and they would gladly sacrifice the latter in favor of the former. Anything else is nothing more than lip service.
Universal healthcare means taxes, and that is the one thing Libertarians hate above all. Never mind that it would be cheaper than private insurance. They relish in the fact they can skip buying insurance, and if they get hurt, ERs are required to treat them anyway.
That’s not fair. They also really care about getting rid of age of consent laws!
I think there are roughly three subgenres of libertarian; the two you identify (wants hierarchy with warlords and wants public heroin use without jail time) but then there is also a third group that has focused a lot of rage on age of consent laws for some reason.
I consider myself a libertarian and I believe in free healthcare. I think certain industries should not be run for profit. It creates perverse incentives that harm the common man. For example healthcare.
If there’s a profit incentive in bealthcare, there is incentive for drug companies or hospitals to raise their prices. This would mean less people getting treatment or more people in medical debt.
Another industry I think shouldn’t be for profit is education. We want an educated population. It should be encouraged, so it should be free for anyone who wants it.
In my view, libertarianism is a perspective that the government should interfere with the personal liberties of the individual as little as possible.
Every single government action should be heavily scrutinized and challenged. Some actions are justified. For example regulating healthcare I think is justified. You are taking away the liberty of starting a hospital - but the benefits outweigh the costs.
I believe that cooperatives should be encouraged if not explicitly mandated for large companies.
I think to Chomsky’s conception of anarchism. Look at all hierarchies of power and challenge them. Some are justified - the power a father has over his child. Some are not - the power a cash advance place has over their customer base.
I think governments often make mistakes and through heavy handed actions end up screwing the average person. By dramatically limiting government action, you help prevent this.
Remember the government is not your friend.
Remember the government is not your friend.
The government is working out just fine for people in Nordic and other EU counties
There are benevolent kings every once in a while. Doesn’t mean monarchy is a good system in the long term. Nordic countries have some of the highest wealth inequalities in the world. They keep the working class content with the programs and benefits. They have been able to afford it up to now, but the system is straining.
In the long term they cannot sustain this and we see it with their indicators slowly falling over time to match other Western European countries.
French & UK citizens are not fans of their government.
Less power the government has unnecessarily, the better. Doesn’t mean the government shouldn’t have power, just we need a mentality that we always need to be trimming the fat.
There’s examples that swing both ways of a government being benevolent and self serving. The more likely outcome is the government being self serving. I personally anticipate every government to eventually go that route. For instance Agustus and a few following Roman emperor’s had set a good example. But once corruption had set its teeth within the government it became incredibly difficult to be a “good” emperor. Not impossible but discouraged.
So yeah. Just because there’s good examples doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be cautious even in their cases. Enjoy the prosperity and encourage it but do have a Killswitch of sorts just in case
How do you deal with bears?
Dinner and plenty of lube.
You just described a somewhat progressive leaning liberal.
You believe that the government should stay our of our homes, socially. Progressives have been leading that charge for decades, and moderates have been on board for a while now.
You believe in universal Healthcare and income. Those are very progressive ideals. Those are about as anti libertarian as it gets, because they take away a lot of “individual” freedom, because to fund that, roughly half of your income will need to go to taxes. Maybe more, I haven’t looked at the numbers in a long time, but plenty of current examples to pick from.
You believe in industrial regulation to combat bad actors when necessary. That is a general liberal ideal.
Nothing besides keeping the government away from your personal life is even marginally libertarian. And that’s pretty much the only overlap between libertarianism and liberalism.
This is all from a U.S. point of view.
Tldr non partisan answer: Libertarian philosophy favors negative rights over positive rights.
Negative rights oblige others to not impede (like not censoring free speech).
Positive rights oblige others to provide something (like healthcare).
Libertarians are people who imagine living in their idea of personal, fictional, utopia. Their utopia is one where they pay for only what they want, nobody else gets any of their money, corporations will do no harm, and somehow, magically, they have all the conveniences of modern life.
They just completely ignore that their miserly financial outlook undoes centuries of understanding that an educated society reduces poverty, crime, and unrest, hence the need for public education. Corporations still cause environmental ruin and poison the land, sea, and air…as if giving them minimal or free rein would improve that. Usually their solution to anyone intruding on their ideal world is to shoot them, no need to pay for cops.
In other words, they’re all about their Liberty to do what ever they want. Their version of liberty for you is “You’re free to sink, swim, or die on your own.” They just assume they’ll always be fine or have enough money to do whatever they need. No need to chip in for anyone els’s health care if a) they can’t pay for their own or b) they have their money to pay for theirs, and you’re not getting any of it.
Itt, people being downvoted for answering the question.
Gotta love Lemmy. Lol
I don’t think being downvoted for answering the question in good faith should happen, but I do see a few bad faith answers that absolutely should be downvoted
Disclaimer, I am not a libertarian by a long shot.
But - there is a difference between freedom to and freedom from. I think in general libertarians believe in freedom to, not freedom from. So you are free to yell, but not free from noise. You are free to walk in traffic, not free from being run over.
It almost makes sense, I don’t think people should be free from seeing things that offend them, right? Or free from consequences. So no, they don’t think freedom from sickness is a right.
You’re right especially in that it almost makes sense - the only people I’ve seen who are more allergic to nuance than libertarians are Trumpists
Do not be deluded by the abstract word Freedom. Whose freedom? Not the freedom of one individual in relation to another, but freedom of Capital to crush the worker.
– Karl Marx, On Free Trade
Libertarians are a bunch of myopic cunts.
Because you can only implement universal healthcare through violence/theft. Doctors need a motivation to work, right? So you either
- Force people to pay tax under threat of violence or find some other way to steal money.
- Force doctors to work under threat of violence.
People are downvoting you for giving the actual reasoning.
I’m used to it, thankfully downvotes don’t change anything :)
There’s a legal obligation to provide defense lawyers to defendants and it obviously isnt done by holding lawyers at gunpoint. The “force doctors to work under threat of violence” argument is so bad faith and imaginary you might as well have just posted “I will make up fake reasons to object to this”
real markets need choice and transparency to operate and there’s no way to have those things in emergency care.
Realistically, universal healthcare doesn’t intrude on doctors it intrudes on insurance companies.
There’s a legal obligation to provide defense lawyers to defendants and it obviously isnt done by holding lawyers at gunpoint.
Yes, it’s covered by the first point of my post.
Force people to pay tax under threat of violence or find some other way to steal money.
