“In the entire dataset, 29% of men said they never approached a woman in person before. 27% said it had been more than one year. This was larger for men in the age 18-25 group: 45% had never approached a woman in person,” according to the study.
A majority of single males surveyed reported fear as the main reason they do not approach women for dates in person. Fear of rejection and fear of social consequences were the two most common responses.
The data highlights a growing concern in the United States and abroad — loneliness. A 2023 report from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services found that almost half of U.S. adults report “measurable levels of loneliness.”
It’s interesting to say the least. It seems as though the social repercussions and rejection are the most profound reason. While the fear of rejection is easy enough to digest. But I think the fear or social consequences is a relatively new construct.
From what I understand it’s the fear of being viewed as a creep to approach a woman out of the blue. Which to me, is reasonable enough. But I don’t think I have ever heard my old man or anyone of his generation bringing this to the table.
Yet I do remember asking my friends about picking up hints and whether or not men are really that bad at it. And most them saying the just don’t want to risk misinterpreting it.
Perhaps there is an argument to be made that approaching women like this, has fallen out of social fashion. What do you guys think?
p.s. I hope this is casual enough of a conversation. I kinda screwed up my last one, I admit.
Edit: Here is a more detailed paper on the survey for those that are interested
A female friend once said that, at least in the US, men are often viewed by women as being either creepy or not creepy. The not creepy men have learned to avoid women due to the creepy men, so the only men who would approach a woman must be creepy.
Make of that, and its consequences, what you will.
Well what I make of that is, that it’s (perhaps) an out of date social norm ;)
It would seem so.
There are asexual men too. And asexual women.
Women have been complaining in popular media for decades about random dudes approaching them and asking them out. How is it a surprise that the trend is dying out? It’s clearly something that most women don’t enjoy to begin with.
Ya it sounds like it’s at a good thing it’s falling out of fashion from what I’ve heard from women. The problem is that it just being replaced with dating apps, so we as a society just need to find something to replace it with that’s not so packed and sold lol.
There are plenty of environments where you can still meet potential romantic/sexual partners offline, and approaching people you don’t know is considered acceptable conduct.
The thing that’s dying out is hitting on women everywhere.
You just need the confidence and dedication to actually go out to bars or attend singles nights and meet people.
Apps are only the new norm if you decide that wagging your fingers back and forth is the maximum effort you’re willing to put in.
I can speak from personal experience only, but bars also don’t really tend to be the place go for that as much anymore either, women tend to want to go and have fun there and feel just as bothered by being hit on (again this is only my personal experience from myself and men/women in my life). My experience with singles nights is that it is predominantly men, by a wide margin and that puts the women that go in a bad spot again. I’m just really unsure of where the proper place is anymore. Outside of dating apps which even those seem to be more of an annoyance to people inundated with messages, it seems you just have to stumble across a new friend group and find someone there.
It feels like an overwhelming effort for both sides at this point and casual interactions are becoming increasingly rare
Have you ever tried going to a bar and talking to a woman like she’s a human being, instead of hitting on her?
I’m not sure what kind of person you think I am bud, but yes, I do know how to have healthy interactions with women. My original statement is still valid to my experiences. Most of my time spent at bars was with an SO and her friends since it’s not my scene. People go there mostly to have fun and hang out, usually with their friends. While somewhat open to random people interactions it’s still not what it used to be 10 years ago or even before then
How do you think they might respond to being approached by bears?
Don’t know how old your father is, but at least among Gen X women, creepy men absolutely have been part of the discussion. It just wasn’t a public discussion until much more recently. Hell, the fake phone number thing goes back to landlines.
We’re still at a point of significant cultural change in gender relations, and until an equilibrium point is reached, there’s going to be apprehension about approaching others. To that end, it’s important that we keep small gaffes made in good faith as social misdemeanors (to allow for opportunities to correct behavior) and not career-ending incidents. It only takes a quick browse of social media discussing one of these incidents to see why said apprehension exists.
That said, I still don’t think we’re having enough conversations about consent around positions of authority and social hierarchy in general. Too many people don’t understand that being nice to someone when you’re on the clock isn’t implied consent for continued interaction with that person off the clock. That’s the light stuff; it can go all the way to gross stories about cops and women. It all stems back to authority and power imbalance. This might be more of an issue in the US than elsewhere; I think ideals of “equality” and “social mobility” are so ingrained in our culture that some Americans don’t have the social intelligence around the very real stratification that exists at the workplace and elsewhere.
Fear of rejection is a whole other problem that likely stems from everyone having more anxiety now. I was around a bunch of people in their late teens/early 20’s a lot more than usual the past couple years and holy crap. I thought my social anxiety was bad. I don’t know how these kids are going to function.
OP didn’t really bring up trying to pick up your work colleagues, I think that’s pretty universally a bad idea, though it certainly happens. The risk of consequences is absolutely going to be high in a professional setting
Not just talking about work colleagues, also client or customer relationships.
I mean, clients and customers all fall under the same umbrella as work colleagues, they’re all professional relationships
I ended up marrying my work colleague. By the time we started dating I was already slated to leave the state for another gig in a couple months. Figured if it didn’t work out, I’d be completely out of the picture soon anyway. If it did work out… well a year of long distance turned into a marriage, so it really worked out.
That said I have a more corporate long term job now, so I’d certainly have to be a lot more socially careful if I were single trying to meet someone at work.
It still happens a lot here. And it’s no surprise considering how much time people are spending at work. A lot people just don’t have time for dating.
There is very little positive guidance, just a sea of don’ts, usually worded as absolutes. And a lot of divisive “gender war” BS from all sides. Really not surprising.
For positive guidance, here’s my approach in bars:
- Casual environment. Preferably full of people, it’s safer for both.
- Good hygiene, and clothes that show self-care. You don’t need to LARP as rich, but don’t pop up with a spaghetti-stained T-shirt either.
- Find some excuse to start a conversation. Plenty of times I’ve approached women outright saying “hey, I’m drinking alone and up to a chat. Are you waiting for someone?” (implied: “is it OK for me to sit with you?”)
- Offer a drink. Make sure that the waiter/waitress brings it, don’t bring it yourself.
- Find some topic that both of you enjoy to chitchat about. Avoid divisive ones.
It works well enough here in Latin America to break the ice.
Important: be assertive but don’t be pushy. It’s fine to show interest, it’s not fine to insist. If you notice that she’s uncomfortable with your presence, just leave. And some people will be only up for the chat, but won’t be willing for anything sexy or romantic, that’s fine too as long as you don’t push boundaries.
Offer a drink. Make sure that the waiter/waitress brings it, don’t bring it yourself.
When you specifically say this, I get it…but that thought would have never run through my mind in the moment.
PERFECT advice! Much love.
be assertive but don’t be pushy
I think a lot of young men won’t do the former in fear of being judged as the later. Sorry guys, women want assertive men, not twerps. The vast majority of women want a man who can make a decision and execute.
Know the age old meme where a man asks a women where she wants to eat and she hems and haws, can’t decide? Guys! YOU make the decision and present it to her. Hopefully you learned something about what she likes. Maybe you know a place she’s never been to? (That’s a great choice!)
“Dinner tonight? We’ll go to La Hacienda. Ever been there?”
And then judge her reaction. If you’re not too far off, they usually jump! People have a hard time hiding negative reactions. If she doesn’t go all in?
“(laugh) You don’t look like you’re not loving it. OK, we’ll try $restaurant.”
Or maybe she presents you with two wardrobe options before going out. Pick one, and be assertive. Even if you don’t care one way or the other.
“That one! That will look great on you!”
No thanks.
I’m not interested in playing those games.Basic human interaction is now “games”. Talking to people in ways they understand and react positively to is now a “game”.
Ever heard of 4chan? Head over there, you’ll fit right in.
if you’re following a script to optimize the outcome then yes, you’re playing games.
I value authenticity and honesty even if suboptimal/inconvenient.
Dunno, maybe that’s just my autism showing.Also, i don’t appreciate you calling me names.
At the grocery store? Lol no
At the bar, if you’re hot sure
So with the exception of attractive people, you would say it’s an out of date norm?
Define attractive.
I couldn’t find the clip, but look up Jamie Hyneman’s definition from the drunk goggles episode of myth busters. Symmetry, no blemishes, age, health.
But I think the fear or social consequences is a relatively new construct.
Rejection and social consequences have absolutely been part of the game, pretty much forever. If I had to wager, what’s different now is that young people spend time online that has replaced irl time, which has “upped the stakes” for irl interactions in their minds. They also just haven’t been as conditioned to being rejected irl and learning to move on.
I say all this as an elder Millennial who employs quite a few 20-somethings, and who has several 20-something nieces/nephews
I wonder how much of this fear is self-induced. Given we spend so much more of our time on the internet, and there has been a huge sexual reckoning for men. Women in the past two decades have gotten A L O T more vocal about shitty treatment from men, and that’s a good thing. That said, male exposure to this vocal messaging has gone up and men are way more aware of it.
The thing is, though, is that men are missing the point. Women aren’t necessarily saying don’t come up and talk to me, but rather don’t come up and grope me, or be a general pervert.
I have been out of the game for a long time, but I doubt treating a woman as a human, and being overall respectful would go over poorly, even if you were propositioning her for a date.
Women are saying don’t approach me.
I’ve been seeing it, as an observer, since the 90’s.
Not all women, but enough.
I’ve noticed less interactions between strangers in general. I think there is a general anxiety issue and a fear of conversations going south/ people getting aggressive. Whether or not that’s rational idk.
I think it IS getting out of date. It seems to me the modern approach is to contact the woman in a friendly manner without asking her out on a date, which is mostly a more comfortable situation for both sides and can lead to a date in the future if both sides feel like there’s chemistry there.
I approached a woman in a bar once back around 2009. after that it was nothing but tinder, I’ve got no clue how to figure out if a woman is interested in person.
I told her friend that I liked her. She married me (eventually).
I think the “me too” movement made me unwilling to approach anyone. I have a FWB from before that time and we work well together so i am cool with that.
The idea that a stranger cold approaching a woman was a significant factor in couplings is quite overblown. Most couples met through some sort of social grouping such as family, friends, religious gatherings, work, etc. This doesn’t mean it didn’t occur, just that it wasn’t an overall productive method of finding a partner. As time has gone on, society has advanced to a place where women are too not only discuss openly about the problematic behaviors exhibited in cold approaches, but also be heard. The affect on young men is that most will not approach a woman due to the already present fear of rejection and the now added fear of being perceived as a creep.
It is not necessarily a bad thing that this is going away, but the large issue that should be addressed is the loss of a community many (I’m speaking for the US here) face. Many young people are frustrated with the dating scene and their inability to find partners. A community not only allows for opportunities to meet potential partners but a framework to enforce (through social pressure) acceptable standards of conduct to ensure all parties are safe and comfortable. I don’t have the answers, but we as a society need to figure it out. There has been unfortunate trend of this frustration driving young people to extremist ideology. This has been most prominent with young men, as is historically the case, but it is starting to take root with some young women as well.
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