I recently discovered an interesting (and somewhat disappointing, as we’ll find later) fact. It may surprise you to hear that the two most upvoted comments on any Lemmy instance (that I could find at least) are both on Feddit.dk and are quite significantly higher than the next top comments.
The comments in question are:
- This one from @bstix@feddit.dk with a whopping 3661 upvotes.
- This one from @TDCN@feddit.dk with 1481 upvotes.
These upvote counts seems strange when you view them in relation to the post - both of the comments appear in posts that do not even have 300 upvotes.
Furthermore, if you go on any instance other than Feddit.dk and sort for the highest upvoted comments of all time, you will not find these comments (you’ll likely instead find this one from @Plume@lemmy.blahaj.zone).
Indeed, if you view the comments from another instance (here and here), you will see a much more “normal” upvote count: A modest 132 upvotes and a mere 17 upvotes, respectively.
What’s going on?
Well, the answer is Mastodon. Both of these comments somehow did very well in the Mastodon microblogging sphere. I checked my database and indeed, the first one has 3467 upvotes from Mastodon instances and the second one has 1442 upvotes from Mastodon instances.
Notice how both comments, despite being comments on another post, sound quite okay as posts in their own right. A Mastodon user stumbling upon one of these comments could easily assume that it is just another fully independent “toot” (Mastodon’s equivalent of tweet).
Someone from Mastodon must have “boosted” (retweeted) the comments and from there the ball started rolling - more and more people boosted, sharing the comments with their followers and more and more people favorited it. The favorites are Mastodon’s upvote equivalent and this is understood by Lemmy, so the upvote count on Lemmy also goes up.
Okay, so these comments got hugely popular on Mastodon (actually I don’t know if 3.4k upvotes is unusual on Mastodon with their scale but whatever), but why is there this discrepancy between the Lemmy instances then? Why is it only on Feddit.dk that the extra upvotes appear and they don’t appear on other instances?
The reason is the way that Mastodon federates Like objects (upvotes). Like objects are unfortunately only federated to the instance of the user receiving the Like, and that’s where the discrepancy comes from. All the Mastodon instances that upvoted the comments only sent those upvotes directly to Feddit.dk, so no other instances are aware of those upvotes.
This feels disappointing, as it highlights how Lemmy and Mastodon still don’t really function that well together. The idea of a Lemmy post getting big on Mastodon and therefore bigger on Lemmy and thus spreading all over the Fediverse, is unfortunately mostly a fantasy right now. It simply can’t really happen due to the technical way Mastodon and Lemmy function. I’m not sure if there is a way to address this on either side (or if the developers would be willing to do so even if there was).
I personally find Mastodon’s Like sharing mechanism weird - only sharing with the receiving instance means that big instances like mastodon.social have an advantage in “gathering Likes”. When sorting toots based on favorites, bigger instances are able to provide a much better feed for users than smaller instances ever could, simply because they see more of the Likes being given. This feels like something that encourages centralization, which is quite unfortunate I think.
TL;DR: The comments got hugely popular on Mastodon. Mastodon only federates upvotes to the receiving instance so only Feddit.dk has seen the Mastodon upvotes, and other instances are completely unaware.
That was a good investigation and explanation about a weird number of up votes. Thanks for explaining it.
It simply can’t really happen due to the technical way Mastodon and Lemmy function. I’m not sure if there is a way to address this on either side (or if the developers would be willing to do so even if there was).
Mastodon needs to implement group support, you can follow the issue here (don’t get your hopes up though).
Group support would fix it for Lemmy, but it doesn’t fully fix the problem as I see it with this way of sharing the Like objects. For toots outside of any group (in Lemmy terms: comments/posts outside a community), presumably it would continue to function like this, i.e. only the receiving instance is aware of the Like. This still encourages centralization if you ask me.
Yeah, I’m not going to defend Mastodon’s frankly bizarre Like system. It’s not even a privacy thing as favourites are fully public.
Can we all at least agree that “toots” is a terrible sounding term? It sounds like what happens when one of the powerpuff girls farts. She toots.
I’m not a native speaker so I don’t hear the fart association so much. But isn’t tooting also just what a trumpet or elephant does? In that way it makes sense. But I do think the terminology is a bit silly. Why not just “post” instead of toot? Why not just “repost” or “share” instead of “boost”? It feels a bit too much like corporate social media where every feature needs a “wacky and fun” name.
A toot is literally the sound of a birb. It’s got more comfy than “tweet” does.
Interesting. This explains why posts never seem to have more than a few likes on the small Mastodon instance I use. I have to say I’m not a fan.
Yep exactly, it also leads to Mastodon instances only seeing local likes for remote posts. You’ll never see remote likes on remote posts as they wouldn’t be sent to your instance. I honestly don’t understand how this hasn’t been a bigger problem for Mastodon, but I guess Mastodon is more about boosts and chronological timelines and less about sorting stuff based on likes.
It causes people to wander off as they think theres not enough interactions compared to other social media. The first comment you linked shows only 141 points to me.
Thank you for putting in this amount of effort highlighting some shortcomings of the Fediverse
Perhaps you should report this as a bug to the devs. Otherwise, this was an interesting read.
The Mastodon devs are aware of how their Like federation works and considers it a feature, not a bug.
I was referring to the lemmy devs, but ok, I guess
I don’t think there is anything the Lemmy devs can do to fix this. The ball is in Mastodon’s court, so to speak.
(mentioning people mentioned in post because post mentions apparently do not work)
Does the receiver instance federate that like object to other instances? If not, it is shit for sure.
No, but how could it? Let’s say Feddit.dk receives a Like from mastodon.social. Then Feddit.dk would have to tell the other instances that mastodon.social sent that Like. But how can Feddit.dk prove that the Like actually did come from mastodon.social, i.e. it is not just a fabricated Like that Feddit.dk made up and hid by pretending it came from mastodon.social. That’s not easy.
You’re right, that’s worse.
Interesting observation and analysis, and illustrates the potential of more lemmy-mastodon interaction.
Indeed mdon like-federation seems weird but I presume it was setup this way for efficiency, to reduce the number of small communications? Although Lemmy has a backend in rust - more efficient than mdon’s ruby - still I wonder whether the lemmy system of federating all upvotes would scale well if the number of users grows to that of mastodon and beyond ? Could there be some intermediate compromise solution (e.g. federate batches of 100 likes)?still I wonder whether the lemmy system of federating all upvotes would scale well if the number of users grows to that of mastodon and beyond ?
It’s a good question and really we just don’t know yet I think. It’s very hard to predict performance of complex systems. The only way to know, is basically by measuring, and the only way to do that is if we actually had that amount of users.
Could there be some intermediate compromise solution (e.g. federate batches of 100 likes)?
Unfortunately ActivityPub has no way to “batch” activities like this.
Can’t even see these posts, I clicked and got:
400 {“error”:“couldnt_find_post”}
Weird, what client are you using?
Browser. I’m on feddit.nl and use Photon as UI on it (ph.feddit.nl).
Interesting. Seems like Photon attempts to do some kind of clever (and entirely non-standard) hack and tries to load the comment from your own instance? But obviously you need to see it from Feddit.dk to see the votes. This is a bug with Photon I would say.
Ok, sounds plausible. Thanks for the explanation!
PS: I just tried it without Photon and got another error.
https://feddit.nl/post/feddit.nl/20706530Anyway, all good and not something I can influence so I let it go :-)
I don’t understand why your instance seems to be rewriting the link somehow, but it shouldn’t. This happens with lemmy-ui?
I don’t understand why feddit.dk doesn’t display upvotes received from Mastodon users. Why is this dependent on my instance?
Then why, if I view the post on feddit.dk, does it not show me those likes/votes? What is dependent on my instance?
I don’t understand what you mean, how does it now show you the likes? If you see the two comments here and here as I linked above, you can see the high upvote count. Almost all the upvotes are from Mastodon instances.
The upvotes do not appear if you view the comments from another instance, like here and here, because those instances did not receive the Like.
Sorry, I mean when I view the comment via my instance. I don’t understand why my instance needs to receive the votes/likes directly, instead of my instance fetching them from feddit.dk when I request the comment.
Your instance doesn’t pull the upvotes from other instances. That would not be scalable. How would it know when to pull again, to see new upvotes? When would it stop pulling periodically? Never? And you’d have to do this for every single post and comment everywhere.
No, instead ActivityPub uses a push mechanism here. So any new activity is pushed out to the ones that are deemed relevant to know about the activity. Any other instances are unaware.
Pulling the data when a user requests a post/comment (with a cooldown/cache for popular posts) isn’t any more or less scalable than feddit.de pushing the same data whether it’s been requested or not. If anything, I’d think pushing data when it’s not necessarily needed would be less scalable.
But if it has to be a push model, why doesn’t feddit.dk push the votes it knows about along with the rest of the data?
Pulling the data when a user requests a post/comment (with a cooldown/cache for popular posts) isn’t any more or less scalable
That would definitely be less scalable. That would entail pulling every single time a user views a post or comment. That’s simply not feasible. There are far, far more views of content than there are posts, comments and votes.
Also what about stuff that isn’t seen? What if nobody is logged in or nobody looks at the New sort? You need the votes before you even show the user anything, otherwise you can’t sort the votes.
But if it has to be a push model, why doesn’t feddit.dk push the votes it knows about along with the rest of the data?
This has been explained elsewhere in the thread, see https://feddit.dk/post/7628338/10255563
