I’m an ex incel myself, but I’ve been seeing a few users here exhibiting the tell tale signs. “I’m not attractive enough”, “I don’t socialize correctly”, “I’ll never find a woman” - all extremely unhealthy attitudes.
Personally I burned through many friendships and ruined a lot of chances with women because I was in the incel community. The community warped my view of women so much that I made it even harder to meet women, I became my own worst enemy. I lost friends because all I could think of was how horrible it was that they had girlfriends.
I have a friend who helped me out of it. She was the one who started calling out my bad behavior for what it was, and I started on the long uphill path out of it. I’m now married and stable for well over a decade, but I still think back to those days, and it depresses me seeing other people causing this themselves and not being aware of it.
So, Lemmy, for those who have clawed out of it, what’s your story?
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I was never full-on incel, but I was definitely headed down that path. I was a late-20’s fat guy with severe acne all over my upper body, and I’d obviously never had a girlfriend. I looked ahead in life and just saw it going further and further downhill. I tried dieting, working out, etc, but none of my attempts at making a change ever lasted.
One day I saw a facebook post that one of my old highschool classmates had gotten married. The guy looked a lot like me, and at first I was mad - I had that classic incel thought of “why is he successful and not me?” But after sitting in that dark place for awhile, I realized that the answer to that question is that I can be successful! I realized that I’d never tried to put myself out there because I always viewed myself as not being worthy - I needed to be fitter, more attractive, better at talking to people, etc - but did I really? I wanted to find out, so I made an online dating account, cleaned myself up, got a friend to take some nice pictures of me doing things I enjoyed, and put myself out there.
I made a goal for myself to never start a conversation with “Hey” or something similar - I went through every profile I found and picked something specific to talk about. It took a while, and I missed a lot of opportunities by being awkward, but eventually I got good enough at holding a conversation to secure a few dates, and in only a few months of that, I found the woman who is now my wife!
I’m still fat, but having someone to look good for was at least enough for me to shower more regularly, which cleared up a lot of my acne. I’m still pretty awkward, but so is my wife, and we both find it endearing. Life’s not perfect - there are still issues - but I’m no longer looking ahead at my life and seeing only downhill trajectory; I have a sense of optimism I didn’t have before, and it mostly came from me accepting myself. I’m not sure if other incels are the same as I was - not realizing that the one they actually hate is themselves - but I hope that if they are, they eventually come to the same realization that I did: that they are worthy.
I changed my gender.
Escape incel culture with this one simple trick! ™
“If you can’t beat 'em, join 'em.”
Couldn’t get a girlfriend so I became the girlfriend
That’s cheating! (Just joking, good for you, I wish all the happiness to you, seriously!)
Femcel now then?
I don’t know if this counts since I was never the women hating type, but for a long time I suffered because I couldn’t figure out a way to have a girlfriend.
How I dealt with it? Understanding myself, mechanisms of social pressure, and the wrong motives I had for wanting to have a girlfriend.
It was always about proving something to others, rather than actually finding a life partner. Everyone around me constantly pestered me to find a gf, friends, family … All the media celebrates certain kinds of romantic relationships. I thought I’m worthless if I don’t do it as well.
Changing that mindset transformed me - I don’t have to put myself in situations I’m uncomfortable with, and I don’t have to pursue types of relationships defined by others.
I got asked out by a girl in high school I barely knew after feeling unlovable for most of my teens. I became fast friends with her female friends and it kinda helped me realize that women are just people.
Later I broke up with her but stayed friends with everyone. Eventually I started dating one of her other friends, and we’re still together 6 years later. Taught me that being friends with someone should probably come before a relationship, and the best way to get girl friends is to just hang around them and do normal friend stuff.
Later I found out that the only reason I got asked out in the first place was because of a coin flip. If I lost that 50/50 I might still be an incel weirdo. Weird to think about.
Having good female friends can absolutely make a huge difference. I thought women were these nebulous things that I didn’t know how to talk to. Turns out they’re the exact same. There are some that like sports, there are others that like nerdy things. You can’t just put people into boxes and say “you are a woman so you are like X”. They’re just like men, with different traits, and you can be best friends with women even if there is no intention to ever sleep with them.
Hell some of my best friends were women, and after they uturned me about being an incel they started going to bat to help me out. “Hey we invited ____ along, we talked you up to them!”
The coin flip, chance concept is something I’ve dealt with too. I was fast going down the incel path in my mid 20s. One of my managers at work was given two tickets to a speed-dating event, his mother told him he “needs to find a girlfriend” so she can “be a grandmother”. He didn’t want to go. We were having fun talking to him about how awful a speed dating event would turn out to be.
He said he would go if one of his friends came with him to the event (afterall, he had two tickets). He called so many of his friends, most were already in a relationship, or were busy that day, or just rejected the invitation. Then he started asking workmates at work, similar responses. Eventually he approached me, he knew I was single, knew I didn’t have social life, knew I never spoke to women, he said it would be a good opportunity for me to put myself out there. My first inclination was to say “no way”, “absolutely not”. I’m not attractive and a bit autistic, I don’t make a good first impression to anyone. The thought of awkwardly making small talk for 5 minutes at a time with 12 different women who were judging me based on first impressions, was the absolute opposite of my idea of a good time.
Then I thought about it as a chance to help my colleague, he wasn’t going to go unless I went with him, I wanted him to go, he wanted me to go, plus it was at a new bar that I’d heard good things about. At the very least I’d get to have some drinks with my work friend.
The event was about as awkward and anxiety-inducing as I expected for the most part. Most women were much older than me, and clearly had zero interest in chatting to me. So I took the pressure off myself, I wasn’t there to find a girlfriend, I didn’t buy the ticket, I was there to support my friend. There were two women around my own age, who were not bad looking and I actually managed to hold a conversation with (the beers helped). At the end of the event you could write down the name of anyone you felt a connection with and the organisers would find mutual matches.
Next day I find out I matched with one of the women I’d indicated. I got her contact details, and started talking to her via emails and SMS for a few months, getting to know each other better. Again I didn’t put any pressure on myself, I didn’t know this person, I didn’t ask her to match with me, it was a “easy come, easy go” situation with zero stakes. After two months we eventually went on a real date, and turns out we were a great match. Two years later we were engaged. Today is our 10th wedding anniversary, and we have two kids.
After we started dating I found out that she only went to the speed dating event as a support person to her friend. She didn’t go in looking for a relationship either.
That got me thinking about the odds of this happening. If my colleague didn’t get given tickets from his mother, if any of his other friends weren’t busy and went with him instead, if I didn’t agree to go along with him, if she didn’t go along with her friend for support, if I didn’t write down her name at the end, if she didn’t write down my name. The mind boggles. She told me it was a 50/50 whether she wrote down my name, just like you mentioned.
When people say dating is a “numbers game”, that doesn’t need to be interpreted in a predatory or creepy way. I think this is what it is about, the chances of finding a connection with someone really is a chance, but the one thing you can do is find a way to make that chance non-zero.
Even if you only have a 10% chance of winning, if you take a chance like that 10 times then it’s more than 65% likely that you’ll succeed at least once
Taught me that being friends with someone should probably come before a relationship
This has been my experience too. My wife is my wife but she is also my best friend.
She wouldn’t have done it on the outcome of a coinflip if she wasn’t at least partly interested.
She had a crush on two guys, I was one of them lol. The coin flip was to determine who to ask out. You’re right though!
Ah, right. In a way that’s even better - you were stacking up comparably against competition.
I took estrogen.
I was like fuck them they are so pretty 😭 Now I am pretty yayHell yeah! Be pretty!
No but seriously I was kinda incel once. I barely can remember that time but it involved lots of substances, clubs and things that were supposed to make you manly. Other people enjoyed them, me? I only wanted these things to make me more manly. I thought it can be learned or acquired with enough cigarettes, beer and calling people names and doing stupid ‘acts of masculinity’. I mistook antisocial for masculine I think in this pursuit.
When I felt empathy? again at 27 years old it was amazing. Like a blind person who has seen colours first time since losing them at the young age.It’s truly amazing that we are capable of caring and this deep connection as humans and I don’t think there’s anything more worthwhile.
I read the last line in Mysticats voice lol
I feel that “I’m not pretty” stuff too!
But wary of taking estrogen and going with transitioning for social reasons and also because I kinda want to remain sexually active and keep a solid dick lol
So, crossdressing and some makeup it is!
I’d kill myself sooner than see myself in the mirror as an old man one day. It’s pretty easy indicator. Old woman - yeah whatever could be nice, old man - no fucking way brr
And social things, yeah well this is admittedly something that is problematic but I am a firm believer that if you are confident enough, you can get away with just about anything.
I am just me, Emmie, hello. Nothing less or more and the rest anyone can make up in their heads as they see fit. Not my business
Cool!
In any case, I admire your bravery and the firm dedication to be yourself. I wish you the best of luck!
I used to be an incel, but probably not in the way you’d think. I mean it in the original use of the term, that is, I was a queer kid in a small town and there was not a single person in town I was attracted to who was also attracted to me.
I moved to a big city, and things got a bit better but I still had issues in meeting new people with meaningful connections. I expected to just stumble upon the perfect partner that loved me exactly as I was, even though I hated myself.
It wasn’t until someone basically slapped me in the face with the question, “Well, would you want to date YOU?” that it started to make sense. I was spending so much time looking for “the perfect partner” that I forgot to work on myself to become the perfect partner FOR that perfect partner. Once I stopped “looking” for them and instead started working on making myself a better person that things started falling into place.
The only person you have to live with your entire life is yourself, so make sure you love yourself first and people will be attracted to that. No one wants to be with someone who hates themselves and everyone around them.
Well stated. I had a blind date with a partner that was perfect on paper and overnight realized I did not present the way I wanted needed to for that opportunity. I immediately started dieting. After I got into the healthy BMI range I immediately noticed that people started treating me differently and I had significantly more opportunities. It’s hard to accept that the problem might be you, but that’s the path out.
I don’t know if I’d have considered myself an incel, but there’s definite cringe behavior in my past that would at least fall under incel behavior.
Thinking about it now, I was just too focused on being what I thought would make me attractive to someone, mostly based on listening to other guys or media, and not actually getting to know the people I wanted to date and finding out what they wanted.
I saw the people I liked more as a goal to reach in some gamified system, rather than as just another person who wanted to meet someone nice. Just not a lot of empathy going on. You can’t just grind to an ideal character build and have some formula say, ok you’ve met the requirements, here is your achievement trophy.
I’ll assume you want an actual partner, and not just a fling, so it’s going to be platonic one on one time that’s going to get you closer to your goals. The “friend zone” is not a trap. The “friend zone” is a power up. You’re spending time with someone you like. That’s a win. Even if you aren’t dating them, you’ve managed to find someone who wants to spend time with you and get to know you. It’s getting you interacting better with other people and hopefully understanding and accommodating them better, not you just being self centered. It’s making you a more interesting and rounded person. That guy is the real thing the right person will eventually want to date.
You trying to date that particular person probably wouldn’t work out, and being their friend is still a positive thing to your life. It’s someone to commiserate with, to get to know your actions around a girl you can have mutual respect for, to learn what girls you like really care about and want to see in a relationship. She doesn’t owe you love for you time. You owe her respect for her time, and she will give that back to you. It’s the same as a guy friend. It’s another member for your party. That’s a strength, not a loss.
Spend time with women without there being an ulterior motive, and you will learn a lot. For me, I liked strong willed, assertive women, and well… that lead me to get to know a lot of women that had no interest in men in that way, so it eliminated the whole dating part of the equation, and that took a lot of the pressure off there for trying to “win them over” in that regard, and to just learn women are people just like me, with the some wants, needs, confusion about dating, and all that.
I ended up also finally talking to my doctor about depression, and that was the life altering experience that really made everything fall into place. My shit behavior, past and present at the time, was all my fault, but it turns out I had some things really stacked against me with my ability to cope and develop emotionally, that once I got that fixed, was a huge burden lifted from me.
Once that was dealt with, I was in a whole new world and all relationships became much easier to understand. Guys and girls became all of a sudden much more relatable and understandable, and I was able to process other people’s wants and needs instead of just my own, and it had taken too much of my resources just to make myself a barely functional person.
I became able to learn empathy and that helped me become someone people were interested in knowing and loving, in friendship or in dating. It helps build and maintain good relationships. I can better know what I want, and how to better understand someone else’s wants.
I feel the incel/nice guy behavior is largely just people with underlying emotional issues they haven’t figured out. You’ve got to realize other people won’t complete you or can’t be that missing piece. That’s something you’ve got to figure out first. If that’s getting meds to give you an even playing field, going to therapy, are just having someone you’re accountable to to fix your shit behavior, ego, or selfishness, do what it takes to address it. Everything else is you making excuses, and until you fix that roadblock in yourself to building those deeper relationships, you’re never going to have success.
I look back, and regret so much of my life now, but what’s done is done, and I can at least know I never want to act anywhere near that cringe again! But I can recognize it now, and stop it dead. I too just try to share my story when asked, and I hope to help save them some of that embarrassment and regret.
Thank you for opening up, I feel like your story (while I know is very personal to you), is one of many that many men feel, but are too nervous to confront. I think you hit the nail on the head. A relationship in the moment feels like the thing you need, but what you’re actually needing is to feel content with yourself first. Once you work on yourself everything else falls into place.
But you have to want to want that change, the world won’t do it for you
Much like anything else, having that strong foundation of physical, emotional, and spiritual health within yourself is going to make adding outside relationships much easier.
It’s not like you have to be anywhere near perfect; you just needs to know your strengths and limitations. Having a personal handicap in common with someone can be a bond, or having complementary quirks can sometimes strengthen things for both of you if you are healthy about it. Like someone that knows they spend too much but has poor impulse control and someone that is too restrictive and needs some to say it’s ok to reward yourself occasionally.
We all just want happiness, and we think getting a girl, a fancy house/car, a pet, a child, whatever it is will fill that hole inside. But the problem is within, and that is where the solution needs to come from.
When you rely on someone outside to complete you, you end up being that person that’s drowning, and your struggle ends up taking your would-be rescuer down with you instead. Other people don’t deserve suffering to try to fix you. Some may try, but that is seldom very successful, and you’ll often just hurt those you care about. I’ve lost many friends and girlfriends that way.
I think it’s important to talk about these things, especially with other men. I grew up around selfish parents and never got to spend much time with people my own age, learning how to interact, and looking out only for me was a survival instinct. I felt it was weak to rely on others, to get help, to feel sad, etc. It was all really self destructive things, and I still have to fight constantly with myself trying to break free of it and enjoy my life. It makes it therapeutic to talk about it whenever it comes up, because it shows me in a good way my situation wasn’t unique and others are in the same position. We can help each other get through it, and I’m not the type to pull the ladder up behind me and leave you to your own fate.
As I said, I will never shake all the shitty things inside to people I cared about, and I can’t fix most of those broken bonds of trust, but I can talk myself through my emotional scars with you all, and hopefully help you do less damage to yourselves. Trying to prevent some of this from repeating to someone else is about the only way to make up to myself for things I’ve done.
When you rely on someone outside to complete you, you end up being that person that’s drowning, and your struggle ends up taking your would-be rescuer down with you instead. Other people don’t deserve suffering to try to fix you.
But isn’t the most effective way to prevent others from being harmed due to your own issues to simply isolate yourself from people who would potentially care? You cannot harm anyone but yourself if there is no one to see you struggling and trying to help.
None of your friends could possibly be hurt if you had zero friends.
I’ve gone through periods of time like that, but I don’t feel it’s necessarily the healthiest way to go. If you want to be isolated and dwell in depression, that’s absolutely a choice. I always felt better though spending time with either my brother or my one lifelong friend when things got that bad. I don’t think humans are meant to be totally alone for long.
Additionally, if you’re looking to improve your situation, being alone where it was just me and my self-destructive thoughts wasn’t the most productive environment. Ideally, you would be continuing to learn to be better around those people. Keeping isolated is just going to keep you comfortable alienating people.
Lucked out and made (and still have) a great friend who’d always call out my bullshit and also talk through what was wrong with my mindset and thoughts. God, I was insufferable
I fell down an incel-adjacent rabbithole when I was a teenager and young adult and while I was physically isolated (lived with my parents in the suburbs but my parents hadn’t bothered to teach me to drive, so getting around was a royal pain in the butt. Realistically I could’ve done more but youth truly is wasted on the young) I then for “reasons” socially isolated myself by avoiding online communities where i could have met people. I had really bad acne that brought my self-esteem to zero (in hindsight the acne was about the 5th least attractive thing about me at that time) and was struggling to complete a college degree in the wrong field while also failing to work enough to be able to afford to move out (again, hindsight 20/20 I had things I could have done but didn’t)
Because I didn’t interact with anyone outside of my household, my social skills never grew and probably deteriorated. I was depressed and felt trapped, I believed myself to be “too autistic” to do things that could help, and it was all around a pretty unhappy time in my life.
I happened to meet my now-wife on an online dating site, and we’ve both reflected and determined we were both in similarly bad but different places at that time. She had gained a bunch of weight (I seem to have a wider attractive range for weight than most people so this wasn’t a problem for me) and was moving on from her nth abusive boyfriend. Honestly my lack of social skills at the time made it so there were times where I flat out said something incredibly hurtful without realizing it. She’s since told me that she put up with that because “at least I wasn’t physically abusive” (single dudes, the bar you need to meet is so, so low)
Anyways we both have since grown a lot as people and have both grown into fairly functioning adults. We both have more to grow (we both really need to get our respective executive dysfunctions under control), and sometimes we’ve grown apart, but we’ve kept growing back together.
I’m too old to be an incel™; I was going through it back when the term incel was coined as a neutral descriptor. I’d like to think that I wouldn’t have gone down that rabbit hole, because critical thinking comes very naturally to me, and the idea that it was women’s fault didn’t ever quite sit right with me. Women aren’t a monolith; they don’t get together and scheme. But if the incel phenomenon had been around, well, who knows? The camaraderie and validation of a group is incredibly beguiling.
Anyway, I was dealing with depression, which brought along a lot of other problems that caused me to be deeply angry and unsatisfied with life. One thing that really woke me up, oddly, was the song Toledo by Dan Bern. Specifically, the lyrics, “Maybe all the things you thought you got coming to you / Ain’t coming to you / Not in this life / And maybe all of the promises you thought were broken / Were never really made” In short, where was I getting the idea that life was fair, or that the universe owed me, well, anything? Not quite out of my posterior, because many cultural messages tell you that. But those messages are wrong.
So I decided to make the best of what life gives me, work on my own issues, and to have fun and do interesting things solo. And wouldn’t you know it, a year later…
…I was still single. What, do you buy into that trash about how you find “the one” when you stop looking? I’m still single years and years later. BUT! That’s okay, because “giving up looking” isn’t some fancy, new way of low-key actually-looking. The benefit has been being more satisfied with life, and doing fun and interesting things.
Honestly… Two years in prison. Made me grow up and see how shitty I was as a person.
Mind if I ask you more? What was the nature of crime? How do you feel it changed you? It’s very rare nowadays to see stories of people who feel prison actually helped them becoming better people, and I’d love to know more.
Of course, only if you feel like talking about it; if not, this is alright!
Not an incel but someone on the trans-and-women-hating pick me pipeline: Got into a fight with a Reddit mod about autism. I’m autistic and ended up arguing with a sub’s mod about how not all autistic people are special snowflake tumblerinas. Left such a bad taste in my mouth that I stopped going to the sub, which was my main source of hate content. Let me get exposed to other viewpoints and ultimately I came out as nonbinary after previously saying nonbinary people weren’t real.
Denial is a common way to cope with all sorts of dysphoria when societal pressure is applied and can influence your decisions.
Congrats on coming out and coming to terms with yourself!
Honestly, I touched grass and made some good good friends. I matured and realized incel shit wasent very cash money. I wasent full incel but I was definitely on the path. I worked on myself a lot and really grew into just enjoying my hobbies. I learned that I wasent mature enough for a relationship and didn’t respect myself enough. I still have a lot to learn and will continue to learn and grow. Currently im in a nice relationship and around good friends
Had sex
spoiler
But really, wasn’t a women-hating incel per-se, more socially inept nerd.
Worked to better myself. Lost some weight, became more talkative by being a DM in D&D, started more interesting hobbies other than watching anime and gaming, alcohol helps to get loose in social settings.
did you delete Facebook and lawyered up?
Facebook up, hit the lawyer, delete gym.
Not really incel in that I didn’t blame or resent women or anything but I was pretty low self-esteem (this years and years ago). Got my first job, started exercising, eating better, and literally within like 6 months of committing to just focusing on my own self-improvement and being comfortable with my own independence I met my future wife lol. That self-confidence may have led me to saying yes to invitations I otherwise either never would’ve received in the first place or never would’ve accepted.
So a combination of a) Being comfortable with yourself, by yourself, and not actively looking but rather letting things organically happen naturally, b) active self-improvement, and c) putting yourself out there a bit by way of hobbies and work, etc.
It really is amazing how quickly things turn around when you just focus on being a better human. Working on oneself is a great way to feel better all around. Then it usually follows that people will start being attractive. Someone who enjoys life and is fun to be around is a lot more attractive then someone who doesn’t see the point in doing anything and resents everyone.
