Is there a single episode without politics?
Star Trek is and always has been deeply and inherently political
People whined about black hobbits and elves.
What?! Fashion-Lizard and his Sidekick Dr.Twink are Woke?! I can’t believe it!
Well, it did take a while for Fashion-Lizard to stop being Fascism-Lizard.
Don’t forget that the whole Federation is a post captialist utopia which is a political statement in itself.
Don’t forget that the whole Federation is a post captialist utopia which is a political statement in itself.
Great point!
“‘No need for/Evolved past the need for money’ … yeah, wtf, lets just completely ignore that ever-present bit, it’s too scary & perverted to comprehend.”
- avg capitalists Trekkie (or “Trekkie”)
Wait until people finally get the epiphany that Star Trek is advocating for a world government. And how many here, including outside the Internet, would actually like that?
Precisely.
IIRC, a world government is a prerequisite for joining the Federation isn’t it?
I don’t know. I might like that? It depends a lot on how it is implemented and who is in charge. 😅
And how much power the global government has compared to individual regions.
World government advocates would want a democray with a strong constitution that ensures checks and balance, and a federal system.
I like scifi. I like to explore the strange and push past the walls of reality. I like dangerous visions. Big ideas.
But interpersonal drama, identity-stroking and, yes, politics. It’s just weak and boring. It’s small. Damn small.
Do you see the difference?
Sometimes startrek goes big. Sometimes it doesn’t.
You need good characters to make a good show regardless of the setting, and also to help the viewers relate to the “big” stuff going on around them.
Don’t get me wrong, I think I like the stuff you like. I’d happily watch a documentary about all the made up technology and new science & life they discover, with zero need for conflict or personal growth or “feelings” or whatever. But that wouldn’t be the TV show, which is experienced largely through the eyes of the crew.
Sci-fi is at its best when it recontextualizes an idea in a way that makes us consider it from a different perspective.
Battlestar Galactica did an awesome job of turning the issues around entirely. Famously, it essentially turned the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan on their heads in Season 3, and you had the good guys building IEDs and employing suicide bombers to kill collaborators.
But my favorite one was when they came up with a situation in which outlawing abortion was necessary, and the political opposition used it as an opportunity to manufacture outrage and steal an election even though they didn’t actually care about the issue at all.
But you don’t need spaceships and aliens to do that. It’s just fetishwear at that point.
In real scifi it isn’t fetishwear. It actually serves a purpose.
The spaceships and aliens are how you get people to look at it from a new perspective.
The early seasons of DS9 were about the aftermath of the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and the fall of the Soviet Union. 1990s Americans couldn’t have cared less about the dangers of far-right religious indoctrination of schoolchildren, the re-intrigation of traumatized resistance fighters into peacful society, the cautious restoration of political and economic ties with former occupiers, and the danger of the discovery of a new resource in the territory of a politically and militarily fragile nation full of extremists.
But throw in phasers and a warp drive and people will watch. Suddenly you’ve tricked people into recognizing that people with different backgrounds and religions can embrace their differences to make the world a better place, or reject that unity and create suffering. You have capitalists and socialists sharing space in peace. There’s an invented taboo against rekindling an old relationship that’s actually about gay rights.
All these amazing topics are brought to an audience that just wanted laser fights.
Any genre show can do it. My parents were as red-blooded Republican as anyone, but the third episode of The Last of Us had them crying tears of joy and pain over the love story between 2 men. It tricked them into becoming open-minded by promising zombies.
That’s fiction at its finest.
Yes, like I said, fetishwear. Nonfunctional costumery
Their function is using them to introduce concepts to an audience that may not otherwise be interested or receptive.
Yes, I get the point.
politics is all-encompassing, it can be as big or as small as anything else
Well I suppose it’s a matter of perspective.
I liked Trek before Alex Kurzman stuck his filthy fingers in it and made entire franchise a steaming pile of dog shit.
Haha, true that.
But he tried.
And failed.
Oh, OG Trek was woke AF, but it wasn’t done as ham-handed and hackey as what is happening now. It used to feed open-mindedness into everyone’s living room and was generally welcome to do so. What we have now is just slapping you in the face with its floppy cock of wokeness every chance it gets. There is now almost no actual plot other than that. Doctor Who is doing the exact same thing. Can nothing of my childhood just be left the fuck alone? I mean, yeah, represent the marginalized. Make female heroes, or transgender, or whatever and whoever you feel needs to be represented or empowered. Do all of that, but do you have to rewrite absolutely everything ever written to do it? Have an original thought. Honestly, at this point, it is just lazy writing masquerading as woke.
Thank you, exactly that.
but it wasn’t done as ham-handed and hackey as what is happening now.
I’d also drag out Angel One from TNG. It’s the laziest way to write a matriarchy: everything is the same, except women are in charge instead of men.
I’m sure if we tried hard enough, we could find hackneyed, ham-handed episodes across all Star Trek shows.
For example, this attempt at discussing gender norms:
I think this comment really nails what’s irking me amount newer Trek. It used to be a show that was written in a way that regardless of your politics, anyone could watch, and it would make you think. It was a show that would sneakily slip in progressive ideas that could make you second guess your perspectives on the world.
Now there is no depth to it, it just slaps you in the face with politics.
This is probably gonna be a hot take, but I think Star Trek should be written in a way that is appealing for conservatives to watch, but regularly slips in metaphors which challenges their world view. Trek was at it’s best when on it’s surface it was a fun adventure show, and the politics was on a deeper level.
Explain more about how your childhood is ruined by political messaging in checks notes
Modern Doctor Who and Star Trek. The best written and acted shows of all time, obviously.
I think this is generally what I hear when it comes to “woke” media. I always chalk it up to media having no clue on how normal humans function in a society.
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I never understood that complaint about Star Trek. The series has ALWAYS been woke since the beginning.
Kinda like people complaining Rage Against the Machine becoming political.
Always has been.True in a way, but it was more philosophical and not “in your face”. It made you think about it, and the story was way waay better and deeper than today’s pew-pew starwars approach to star trek. Every episode had a meaning and a lession.
Yeah the problem isn’t the ideals being in there but how bad the story is makes the ideals seem like a cheap crutch.
Compare Brokeback Mountain to Ben and Arthur. Both movies about the relationship between gay men and society. Both say gay people should be treated fairly by socity but aren’t. The first does it in interesting way with great storytelling and ideas. The later is a hamfisted mess.
I’m not going to say modern Trek is Ben and Arthur bad but it is much closer to Ben and Arthur writing then it is to Brokeback Mountain.
True in a way, but it was more philosophical and not “in your face”.
they did the first US interracial kiss during a time that would be controversial.
it was “in your face”
Yeah but that was something that happened and it wasnt a big deal, that’s the whole point. It wasnt the centerpoint of the whole episode, it wasnt the main act and talked about throughout the episode non stop. It’s just something that was normal and happened in normal day to day life. In future these things are considered normal and not worth talking about, because racism is something that did not exist in like 300 years.
It was much better integrated into the story. The problem isn’t the message, it’s the writing.
No mebtion of space communism? The federation is Marxist
Real. Star trek isn’t woke, star trek is tankie
Nah because they din’t glorify authoritarian violence
Violence against the Borg is to be celebrated isn’t it?
That’s violence against authoritarians
Which is the only violence tankies celebrate: killing Nazis and hanging landlords and capitalist owners
The Federation is not Marxist, communist, or socialist. These economic systems rely on a monetary framework where scarcity dictates value. In the Star Trek universe, scarcity has been eliminated on Earth. There is no energy crisis, no poverty, and no starvation. Transportation is instantaneous, and every individual’s basic needs are met. With no financial struggle, humanity is no longer constrained by the pursuit of wealth. The Federation is not built on enforced equality but on a shared enlightenment. With abundant resources, every person enjoys a high standard of living.
What? No. Marxism notes that scarcity wouldn’t be a thing with increasing industrialization. Indeed, it isn’t; we have plenty of resources to put a roof over everyone’s head and food in their belly. The base of Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs can be completely covered, and the rest are not necessarily best fulfilled by mere material possessions. We could have the whole thing done in a year if society simply made the choice.
Now, I don’t think the Federation is Marxist, because we actually know very little about how the economy works at all. There’s contradictory information, it might depend on what time period or planet you’re talking about, and the writers have generally been uninterested in exploring the economy beyond superficial mentions.
No. You’re just wrong and in every aspect.
Please refer to my responses further down in this thread.
When you are in post scarcity and everyone has everything they need and everyone works together ina government for mutual benefit that’s Marxist communism.
No it’s not. (I have to be honest with you. You clearly have no clue what Marxism or communism is and yet you make a declarative statement that holds no water at all; why?)
While the Star Trek universe presents a post-scarcity society where money is largely obsolete and resources are distributed based on need, it diverges significantly from Karl Marx’s vision of communism. Marxist communism is fundamentally rooted in class struggle, revolution, and the eventual withering away of the state. The Star Trek Federation, however, remains highly structured, hierarchical, and governed by an institutionalized bureaucracy, notably Starfleet.
Moreover, technological advancements such as replicators eliminate material scarcity, a condition Marx never accounted for in his theories. Instead of a classless, stateless society emerging from historical struggle, Star Trek depicts a future where economic necessity is bypassed through technology, and individuals contribute based on personal fulfillment rather than class-driven labor dynamics.
Marx never considered replicators much like he never considered sorcery as an option because he worked within the framework of the reality of his time. He was engaging in practical philosophy not fantasy which is why you see the focus on a class struggle as in his time.
The federation has no money and everyone has what they need according to their needs how isn’t that Marx’ ideal? If you could achieve socialism without revolution IRL he would have backed that but in reality you cannot hope for the privileged to give up their power.
I don’t think you should be declaring your assessments of people’s understanding if things given you are factually incorrect in this case and you are not in any way telepathic.
I literally stated how it’s not Marxist… I’m pretty sure that I even proved it in my statement originally.
Marxist communism envisions a classless, stateless society where the means of production are communally owned. Post-scarcity could theoretically contribute to this, but Marxist thought emphasizes the historical process of class struggle and the eventual dissolution of the state. If a government still exists in your scenario, it may not fully align with Marx’s final stage of communism, which predicts the state “withering away.”
How do you read this and go no it is Marxist I’m right.
Again this is because Marx was concerned with reality. Science Fiction wasn’t even a genre to speak of in his lifetime. He might have considered non-violent tech driven communism had that been remotely conceivable at the time but during his time electrical power was rare.
Marx was a huge influence on Roddenberry’s views of The Federation.
a future where economic necessity is bypassed through technology, and individuals contribute based on personal fulfillment rather than class-driven labor dynamics.
Yeah, however not all higher Maslows can be replicated, so obviously a fair bit of (popular or bureaucratic) meritocracy is incorporated into the redistribution and/or accesses to finite resources.
(But the main point is that if individuals have the option to pursue personal fulfilment that is a huge net plus for the society & everyone can get more out of their life & life within that society - imagine only having people in the food industry that fully enjoy the work or the huge selection of artists not pre-smothered by the daily grind for basic human needs.)
As you said, much data is missing, but I assume if I wanted a nicer office or an apparent with a better view I could get to it via contributing something of merit to society (eg a successful career, notable art contributions, maybe some hero stuff, etc).
How come the Picard real estates remained in the family though all those generations, I can’t fully explain. Tho there basically was a revolution (a world war, but same diff) that facilitated initial systematic changes (I assume a much decimated/irrelevant previously-elite class).
How come the Picard real estates remained in the family though all those generations, I can’t fully explain.
Doyalist answer: the writers laid out shipboard EPS conduits more thoughtfully than the Federation economy.
Well
End-game socialist
I mean Sisko kind of does when he describes how the Bell riots have to take place before we unite as a planet and join the Federation
It reminds me of those people that claim The X-Men have gotten “woke” even though that’s been the whole point of the comic since the 60’s or worse yet those poor souls out there who thought Rage Against the Machine was getting too political lol
Reminds me of a YouTube comment under the video where they got cut of during a bbc live take for singing “fuck” after the production team brieft them to not sing fuck: “What machine they thought they rage against? The printer?”
I wonder what these people think “the machine” means 😭
the printer obvs
Fuck you, I won’t print what you tell me
Low on cyan
printing in black and white
If first interracial kiss on TV is Woke then I don’t wanna be anything but.
Don’t forget The Measure of a Man. We literally watched that in 9th grade American History, as a commentary about slavery.
I don’t know about woke but I liked Trek before it got boring and poorly written -_-
Yep, and they suck at analogies too. The old format usually had fairly enlightened people encounter an injustice, usually making it right in some way. It’s morality theater. Discovery made the Federation itself dark and edgy and the people on board a complete mess, not a world I’d like to live in. Maybe that’s what some people perceive when they complain about “politics”.
That’s basically all it is: Media getting “too big to fail” and then neutering its writing quality by committee. It tries to tell socially progressive stories at the same time, so people associate the two.
A streamer pointed out the cognitive dissonance people have, when “anti-woke” people played Baldur’s Gate 3. It was gender expressive and diverse…but it was also GOOD writing. So they decided it was”wasn’t woke”.
That’s fair, the cartoon is apparently not bad, just not my cup of tea.
Lower Decks is my favorite Star Trek since DS9. When it came out though, I was super against it. Didn’t think Paramount had any right to be making fun of Star Trek after Discovery season 1. You can tell Lower Decks is made by people that love Star Trek though.
This last season, they did a classic Audience-with-the-Klingon-High-Council episode, and when I saw it, I exclaimed to my fiance, “Yes! I love Klingon bureaucracy episodes!” and then later in the episode, there was almost that exact same line
Strange New Worlds has been finding their feet too. We got a courtroom episode on Augment rights, that really felt Star Trek, and they’ve had some original stories as well that I’ve really loved, like Among the Lotus Eaters. There have been a couple episodes I haven’t been a fan of, but what Star Trek hasn’t had those?
If you’re open to it, I recommend giving both shows another chance!
Lower Decks and SNW are FANTASTIC and some of the best Trek in a very long time. Almost as good as The Orville ;)
Yeah it’s good and agreed that discovery is pure ass so It’s definitely a little bit of both
We have The Orville today for good Trek
I really tried to like that show but it’s just … Bad. To each their own but I’d rather just rewatch TNG or whatever other Star Trek. That show feels like it doesn’t have an identity, the writers couldn’t decide what kind of show they were writing and the acting is subpar.
Of course, if you enjoy it that’s all that really matters - keep on watching and having fun!
How far did you make it? Season 1 is a bit painful, Season 2 is better but Season 3 is a big shift.
Seth McFarland’s humor is not very good…
Season 3 was a surprise. They just played it straight. Went from parody to homage.
Not very far lol, a couple episodes to give it a fair shake though, do you have an episode recommendation?
Just echoing here that it does take awhile to get going.
Honestly, despite what I’m about to say below, I probably wouldn’t recommend it now (just on signal to noise ratio) if not for https://thecinemaholic.com/the-orville-season-4/ giving hope for more story, or unless you happened to be a superfan of Seth McFarlane.
My .02 -
Season 1 -
First reaction - wow this DOES feel like TNG.
Second reaction - WAY too much Family-Guy style humor.
I like humor in my scifi, and I like Family-Guy style humor (during its heyday anyhow). Season 1 episode 7 almost made me turn it off. No one trying to pay homage to trek should be writing in something like this as a first contact “mistake”. IMO in S1 we learned that Family-Guy style humor doesn’t always work in live action.
Season 2 - Better, but still trying to find the right blend. It’s been awhile now, but I think S2 got better and better over time and had some pretty good eps.
Season 3 - Really great, hit their stride, perfect blend of humor and drama, super disappointed when it was cancelled.
Season 4 - See link above. If they can recapture S3 vibes I’m excited for it, but I’m not 100% confident they will. Fingers crossed.
With all that said, if you are considering it at all, I’d just watch it all. That way you get the evolution of the show, the running gags, and don’t miss any significant bits that are sprinkled through, and you know all the road that has been traveled when they get to S4. It’s only three seasons and it’s not a long show. Yes, some of it is cringe, but so was some of the early seasons of TNG.
Thank you for the lengthy write up. You see though the problem with watching it all is I’d be watching it all… I do appreciate the time it must have taken for this reply though.
That clip on YouTube you linked was super cringe. Agree with you on TNG there’s definitely times and episodes where I think the writers phoned it in and I’m not going to pretend it’s all good. Still my favorite star trek but I don’t watch much so that’s not saying anything considering I haven’t even seen any of the new stuff.
Season 1 episode 10
If you don’t like it I don’t think you will care for the rest
Season 2 Episode 8-9 is a two part episode that is good but I wouldn’t recommend jumping into it because it’s not as good if you don’t care about the characters
Can’t stomach McFarlane unfortunately. I’m told it gets better later on but his sense of humor is just like nails on a chalkboard to me. Couldn’t get myself to finish the first season.
My partner and I have a theory that MacFarlane pitched The Orville as “Family Guy in space,” and he got to make it because of his success with Family Guy. But the actual goal he had all along was to make Star Trek.
In order to keep the game up and get a second season, he had to sell the pitch at least a bit. So the early episodes are like Star Trek with cringey Family Guy-esque jokes. But as the series goes on, the cringe stops, the jokes slow down, and the plots get deeper.
I can’t stand cringe humor and did not consider myself a fan of MacFarlane, but The Orville changed that.
Exactly. Orville is more “woke” and i absolutely love it. It’s supposed to be just a sort of comedy parody of star trek, yet it has more depth than the Discovery has.
True. We don’t have masterpieces like “Spock’s Brain” anymore. /S
Say what you want about TOS, it’s campy and silly but it’s not boring.
Even Platos Stepchildren, which everyone remembers for the first interracial kiss, was a pretty fucking terrible episode.
