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So in short, in the 433 cases, 12 of them is stop by good guy with gun and 42 of them is stop by good guy with massive balls.
So by the statistic provided we should give everyone massive balls instead of gun to stop gun violence.
I wish we could win this argument with logic, but I’m certain the fanatics will immediately latch onto the narrative that guns are being used by good guys already, but we obviously need more guns and less restrictions on them them to get those numbers up.
With Republicans, any fact against them is either ignored or bastardized to say the opposite of what it actually says.
Yeah, there’s rarely any logical sense being made because to them gun is a right, not privileges, and once privileges turn into right it take a dictator to take that away.
But then again, jailing people in shitty prison where most right are taken away is a okay 🤷
They only jail people outside of the in-group
12 of them is stop by good guy with gun and 42 of them is stop by good guy with massive balls.
No. There is nothing to imply that the 42 people didn’t have a gun, just that they didn’t shoot the attacker. That part seems fishy.
Oh yeah, I’m sure any of these cases were someone stopping to hold an active shooter at gunpoint and that somehow working out for them. Or maybe they used their gun as a melee weapon. Or maybe the attackers were subdued by being talked down over their common love of guns. Or maybe the active shooter ran out of ammo and came up to the good guy with a gun to get some more, at which point the good guy revealed they were actually tricking them into lowering their guard and put them into a headlock. Or maybe some other far-fetched bullshit that’ll let me equivocate over the fact that “good guys with guns” don’t do shit in the grand scheme of things.
Jeez, that’s a lot of words you needed to make a clown out of yourself, just because you are pissed by objective fact.
I think you’re pissed at the objective fact that 12/433 is fucking nothing and your “good guy with a gun” argument is a pathetic farce, so you’re trying muddy the waters by shifting the argument to a ridiculous, unfounded, unfalsifiable notion that any of the 42 subduers might’ve had literally anything to do with “good guys” having firearms.
I think you’re pissed at the objective fact that 12/433 is fucking nothing and your “good guy with a gun” argument
There is nothing in what I said that would imply what side of “good guy with a gun” argument I am on and there is nothing in the data that says anything about whether the 42 people had a gun.
My point is this is terrible and confusing representation of the data, as is often the case in any “data is beautiful” community.
But keep kicking around mad that the version that supports your narrative is not the only possible one :D
Yeah, so terrible and confusing that they didn’t mention guns in branches that don’t have anything to do with guns outside of a gun fetishist’s fanfiction.
branches that don’t have anything to do with guns
Branch that doesn’t involve shooting the attacker.
Keep trying. You will not get there, but at least you tried.
Thank you for standing up to the slavering morons around here about bad statistical graphics.
All I’m getting out of this is that police are, in fact less than 50% effective, so we’d better plan on dealing with it ourselves.
They could have also talked them out of it, which still takes balls
True, they didn’t specify whether in that 42 cases the citizen does have a gun but did not fire, just aiming and intimidate. However the data did split between
shot firedshot at the attacker(no mention hit or miss) vs subdued, not killed vs subdued, and also there’s a mention of the attacker surrender, so i assume “subdued” mean the attacker did not surrender but forced to give up whatever they’re doing.The chance that someone decided to go hand to hand with a gunman in the middle of blowing away the population whilst leaving their gun holstered is basically zero.
I recall reading like a gunman got tackled last year. If I get time I’ll dig it up
I think you missed the point. People sometimes DO manhandle the shooter. They don’t do so whilst having the option of blowing away the shooter.
Not what I said or implied, but no, that chance is not basically zero.
I think gun people are counting the police as good guys with guns.
No they don’t. If you ban guns from citizens, police would still have guns in the US.
The argument of “Good guys with a gun” is about citizens not able to kill the “bad guy with a gun” before the police arrive.
I see.
Then why does everyone else need them?
A genuine, actual answer is that when you’re being attacked, it is incredibly rare for a police officer to be standing there, ready to intervene. In life-or-death situations the police really only exist to take a report from whoever is left standing, and potentially make an arrest. There’s plenty of people out there who don’t have the strength to defend themselves in hand-to-hand combat, and even if they did, next to nobody has the skills necessary to reliably defend against a knife attack using their bare hands. That’s just plain how knife attacks work.
You can counter this with statistics that show that access to guns increases injuries and deaths, because they absolutely do, but pro-gun folks put the individual before the group on this issue. The individual, in their mind, should have the right to quick deadly force in order to facilitate defense of their own life, and other’s failure to handle that responsibility is not their problem and/or the price of that right.
There are always tradeoffs, in any policy you set for society. If you go the other direction there will be people who are victimized who would otherwise have been able to defend themselves. Which scenario is worse? How many victims of one type are worth victims of the other?
How does this turn into a knife argument? That’s just a distraction. We do already restrict certain types of knives, plus you can’t walk down a city street with a machete.
More importantly I can shut a door between myself and an attacker. Try that if they have a gun
Well, you know, the more guns, the less gun violence. Yeeeeeeah, right. Since we officially have more guns than people, it should all be over soon.
Oh wow, I missed this. That’s a fantastic insight to pull out of this.
So in most cases the bad guy with a gun is stopped by a bad guy with a gun (himself).
The Hitler strategy, classic.
Right.
- That means “good guy with gun” argument is wrong
- That means mental health intervention can prevent a much larger proportion of these tragedies
I agree with the point this is trying to make, but I don’t think it does its job.
Like, the whole argument from the ‘good guy with a gun’ crowd is about stopping them early. You’d need to cross reference each of these catagories with ‘how many people did the mass shooter kill’. And, this would really only be a strong argument vs the ‘good guy with a gun’ point if the ‘shot by bystander’ result had no fewer average deaths.
Additionally, it’s easy to clap back with ‘well, yeah, our society doesn’t have enough “good people” trained with guns, that’s why it’s only 5%!’
Again, I don’t agree with those points, it’s just that this chart is pretty bad at presenting an argument against them.
Also, the data needs to include how many people are accidentally shot by guns through improper usage and storage.
From the numbers I have seen, far more children are killed accidentally by good-guy-guns then they are saved by those very same guns
We need good kids with guns to shoot the bad kids with guns!?
we need good kids with guns to shoot the neutral kids with guns who might take someone else out when they shoot themselves.
I think they take away your good-guy card before that happens
Ah, the classic no true good guy fallacy.
You should see the data for people improperly using cars or medications or alcohol. Pretty scary stuff, I think everything should be illegal.
it’s easy to clap back with ‘well, yeah, our society doesn’t have enough “good people” trained with guns, that’s why it’s only 5%!’
I agree. It’s pathetic how shit arguments that make no actual sense are allowed to fly by millions of people.
Cause many people don’t want their beliefs challenged. They want to live without accepting facts, or even regardless of facts.
Its the culture war mentality.
“Our idea would work, if the damn Wokes didn’t stop us all from having guns at all times!”
Its always the reason why ‘their ideas don’t work’; cause their opponents aren’t ‘letting them’
The other problem with the “good guy with a gun” is how many people does an attacker need to kill before you are the good guy killing the bad guy? One? And what if you didn’t witness it? The “good guy” with the gun attacking another guy with a gun without knowing what’s going on, are they still the “good guy” in that scenario? It’s a mess.
The whole thing stems from fallacious logic. Arming everyone doesn’t stop bad guys murdering people, at best it might curtail the length of some attacks and at worst it causes innocents to die as so-called “good guys” try to save the day and make it worse.
Prevention is the way forward, as then 0 people die. And the best way to do that is no one has guns (not even most police; just a small subset of specialist police). That is an anathema or sacrilegious to Americans, but it’s the approach taken in many democratic and free countries in the world.
If the chart is trying to make a point, it’s making the wrong one anyway.
I would also zoom in on the suicide of the attacker.
That’s some wild stuff to show these people needed help loooong before they did this.
Homicidal ideation does not always equate to wanting to live with having killed someone, and a lot of these people are closer to normal than they realize until they are facing potential consequences for their actions. I would posit that killing oneself after doing something so heinous is one of the saner outcomes.
A lot of people experience “fucked around, found out” immediately or shortly after they cross a line, before anyone else has a chance to tell them they fucked up.
Yeah I can see that too. It’s a shame the US government banned research into firearm violence by the CDC.
It also leaves out the situations where the bad guy with the gun was stopped before becoming an active shooter.
I read “The police shot the attacker 98 times” with a different interpretation at first lol.
With average cop accuracy that’d probably exhaust their armory’s ammo supply
Lucky they busted old Billy and his one pot plant, and seized all his cash. That will refill the sheriff coffers.
“sprinkle some crack on 'em. Open and shut case Johnson!”
Do you think they got them?
That seems excessive.
Okay, so I’m not the only one who read “shot the attacker 98 times” and for a split second imagined this scenario where 131 times, the attacker was shot a gratuitous and strangely precise number of times, right?
this has me laughing uncontrollably… it’s so specific but also because it’s the police, it’s not impossible. god there’s tears in my eyes from laughing
“Shooter is down. Three clean shots to the chest. Johnson, put 95 more in him, and we can all go home.”
“you can keep the crack, this one actually did something”
The worst part is the scenario is mildly believable knowing our police force.
No, I came here, looking for that exact comment
Guns have really improved since the year 131.
The Aelia Capitolina PD were fucking loose cannons, man.
He’s dead jim
I feel like if police arrive on scene, they’re probably shooting whoever has a gun, “good guy” or “bad guy.” Cops seem pretty jumpy. Perhaps if we could make the good guys and bad guys wear differently colored hats?
This was basically the active shooter training I had to attend when I worked at a big office. Even if you’re a “good guy with a gun” when the officials, armed site security or police, roll in they have no idea and you run a huge risk of being assumed to be the aggressor.
Hell, they have a tendency to shoot each other, too. Cops shooting cops and cops shooting security guards are both things that happen.
Live action team fortress 2
You know what, the American obsession with guns has never been anything to do with “protection”, it’s about being ammosexual.
Most people who carry guns are doing it for self-defense, not civil defense.
The rules of an Active-shooter event are:
- Flee
- If you can’t flee, hide.
- If you can’t hide, fight back.
Carrying a concealed weapon doesn’t change that. I have a little 380 pocket pistol I’ll occasionally carry. It’s low-capacity, low-power, and low-accuracy. No way am I volunteering to take on a psychopath with a long gun who isn’t worried about collateral damage with my little pea shooter, and anyone Who expects me too just because I’m armed can kiss my ass.
I carry a pistol to protect me from muggers and car-jackers, not to protect the public.
Having the general public feeling that they need to carry a gun for self defense just sounds crazy to me.
Stabbings have risen here in the UK but generally it’s either a rare occasion where some nutter is on the run or it’s gang related. In general I would never feel the need to carry my own knife around for self defense. I don’t know anyone who carries a knife around with them for self defense.
Imo only an idiot would carry a knife for self-defence, especially if untrained. If someone (probably women especially) feels unsafe, carrying CS-spray would be more reasonable imo.
Its weird you got downvotes. A knife is a terrible weapon for self-defense, the odds of you getting fucked up by your own knife are extremely high. Pepper spray is far superior to a knife for any realistic self-defense situation.
Tell that to all the young idiots in gangs
Doubt they carry knifes for self-defence. But then, gang-members are probably not the people with the best education.
Would anyone you know tell you if they carried a knife for self-defense, given that it’s generally a crime to do so in the UK?
Close friends sure and yes you need to have a good reason as to why you’re walking around with a knife in public.
It’s similar in a lot of states in the US. You aren’t legally allowed to carry a knife for self defense, or as a weapon, but recently in my state, the laws were changed so that you can carry any size blade without a reason. So if you say “I carry a knife for defense” you’ll get fined/arrested and your knife would be confiscated, but if you say “it’s for cutting stuff” or nothing at all, thats legal.
IANAL. Read your local knife laws.
Almost all of our gun violence is the same, gang/drug related. The media here acts like it’s random killings all over the place, its not. You have a better chance of drowning in a pool than getting killed by an ar15 here, yet people, even in this thread, think it’s something that happens like every 3 seconds.
You conveniently left out school shootings. between 2018-2023 more than 1200 school shooting incidents occured. You literally can not kill a dozen of people with knives but u can easily do it with a gun.
No I did not. And no there was not 1200 school shootings, those numbers are created by the GVA and used as a propaganda piece for anti-2a rhetoric.
Even NPR did a piece on it:
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/27/640323347/the-school-shootings-that-werent
It wouldn’t be wrong if someone wanted a knife for self defense though
I’d feel fine with someone carrying a weapon if it’s based on a reasonable fear, and they make an effort to stay trained/safe with the weapon. For instance, they exited an abusive relationship with a significant other who feels they “belong” to them.
But there’s a lot of people who stretch the statement of “I don’t feel safe” to far more cases than make sense.
Sooo technically most of the time a “Bad guy with a gun” is stopped by a “Bad guy with a gun”.
That’s why you should make sure they all have access to guns.
Statistically, we need more bad guys with guns, to stop themselves.
And here my friends is why it is important to learn to interpret data, because by the numbers, you are correct.
> died by suicide
Sometimes even bad guys with a gun stop themselves.
If they didn’t have guns, how could they kill the shooter? That’s why thy shouldn’t ban guns! /s
Unless thay weren’t actually ‘bad’ people, rather they found themselves having to use a gun as the only option left to them. One notable bit of info missing is why these people had a gun and why were they using it?
Wow, 12/433 “good guy with a gun. That’s higher than I expected! However you still need to compare to deaths caused by “careless guy with gun” plus “scared/angry guy with gun”, which includes the latest school shooting and is much much higher
Also: This chart only shows what happened to the attacker. It doesn’t give you a picture of the innocent people on the scene shot by cops, the cops shot by cops, the “good guy with a gun” who shoots another good guy with a gun, and so on. 12/433 may be accurate, but by the time you deduct points for innocent deaths caused by people with guns on the scene, you’re creeping back down to zero again.
If not everyone would have guns it would probably be a lot less than 433 active shootings in the same timeframe 😅. The 12 would go to 0 quick. But the 433 would decrease a lot more than 12 🥳
I’d also like to point out …. While the usual argument is that criminals would still have guns, many shootings like this are perpetrated by people who weren’t criminals. While the parent had poir judgement and failed their supervisory responsibility, as far as I know the kid in this latest shooting g had a “legal” gun.
While criminals with guns are certainly a problem, better gun control and mental health resources could prevent an outsized number of deaths, injuries, trauma. And don’t forget the family of the perpetrator: most other possible outcomes would be better for them than what happened
Very few people actually carry weapons in public in most of the US, concealed or openly. It’s nothing like “most people”, or even “most gun-owners”. I have a lifetime concealed-carry permit, but my guns stay in the safe, save for specific events.
In my experience, this statement varies drastically by what region you are in the country.
No argument from me. There are places that make me uncomfortable, but all the idiotic open carry shenanigans here and there are just the icing on the shit cake.
Let’s also keep in mind your average gun owner is not owning/carrying to stop a mass shooting. They are using them for self defense, especially night stand guns. If someone’s breaking into my house, I’m not calling the police and hiding hoping they get there in time. I’m defending my family myself, at that exact moment
But that’s kind of a problem. I don’t see how your weapon can be useful for self defense in this case while also being properly secured by a responsible owner. Maybe pairing it with an alarm system or dog can get you enough warning to do both
this doesn’t include times where the good guy was pressure for the bad guy to not attempt it. There’s a reason why shootings in schools are popular, there’s only 1 or 2 armed people there compared to the 1,000+ kids.
Is there a statistic how many bystanders were hurt by armed citizen bystander?
Quiet! You’ll scare the gun lobby with that logic talk!
Unfortunately they will probably just ignore it instead of acknowledging it.
This one actually demonstrates some flaws in this graph format. Maybe it’s just how it’s expressed this time, but, here are some insights you might gain from this presentation that aren’t actually the case:
- “the police shot the attacker 98 times” which just sounds like a normal headline about how police handle things.
- Very near that branch, you can accidentally see “the police died by suicide 38 times”
- and, similarly, “the police surrendered 15 times” which is a surprise because I thought that only happened at Uvalde.
Like, I get what is trying to be conveyed here but the format requires a lot of work for my brain to parse and makes it harder to understand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankey_diagram, specifically made with https://www.sankeymatic.com/ from the looks of it.
What about the times the good guy with a gun is shot by the police?
The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun… In an action movie, in real life, there’s kinda too much chaos going on for anyone to differentiate between the “bad guy” and the “good guy”, or for the “good guy” to know the situation.
I’ve heard of more times where someone tried to play hero and was gunned down by the police who mistook him for the real shooter than I have any reports of “Hero Gunman slays horrible villain”
Chuck a few links up
