Are we in a “free market” or we not? The answer is “depends on what lobbyists want.”
Free market goes to the highest bidder.
Free for me and not for thee.
Might as well be the offical preamble of the Constitution (or at least the more conventional “rules for thee, not for me”).
Lol without all the subsidies gas would be $12/gallon. And burning fossil fuels (40% is automotive) kills more than 250,000 Americans per year. Whats the cost of a human life brah?
Whats the cost of a human life brah?
That depends on if grandma is being evaluated by an Obama Death Panel (life is precious and invaluable) or by the stock market in 2020 (she has, what, a couple years left anyway, let her die).
In the US there is only one metric: Dow Jones death panel. The insanity of our culture is that Obama Death Panels were an invention of the Dow Jones death panel board to rally the lemming brained right against the concept of public healthcare (the horror!). Oh yeah, obligatory fuck Joe Lieberman.
Exactly I am not getting all this subsidy unfairness nonsense that stops Chinese firms from selling cars here. The only difference I’m seeing is that we’re subsidizing cars on the back end through oil subsidies, and they are subsidizing cars on the front end with production subsidies.
Yes, that’s the point. These politicians interfere and meddle and cry “free market” when it is convenient for them.
Would have been far easier to just type “there is no free market”
Free market involves pluralism of systems and distribution of power as important preconditions. Lobbyism requires monoculture of systems and power being sufficiently centralized to be controllable.
Also, the free market is a tool, not a utopia. It optimizes for whatever the people setting the limits of it make it optimize for.
Hence things I said. Otherwise the wheel is free for taking for the worst people.
Are we in a “free market” or we not?
Not.
To play devil’s advocate for a moment, is it really a free market if we are incentivizing one technology over another?
When the oil industry doesn’t have to pay to clean up their externalities we already don’t have a free market. You break it you pay. Fixing the externalities by incentivizing better technology is at minimum a correction to the market.
That argument can be made about the tax incentives.
However, regulations about emissions are intrinsically something we want, and we shouldn’t hold back on that just because gas cars can’t get to the level of emissions we need.
It’s too late. We’ve already hit the tipping point. Many of my neighbors have EVs now. They’re everywhere in my city and I’m not in a major city. They’re just plain better cars and now people know it. It’s too late.
Many decades ago, the US decimated parts of cities and a lot of railway infrastructure to make way for cars. It’s never too late to ruin something
Congratulations, Elon. This is who you hitched your ugly Cybertruck wagon to.
I’d be game to buy one once he can figure out how to build the damn things at sufficient scale
Why? Have you read about them? They can’t go offroad properly, they rust, they have endless glitches…
Well I suspect once they are in scaled production that will largely be solved.
Why do you suspect that when other Tesla models are only marginally less shitty?
There are so many other EV options now and pretty much all of them are of higher quality. Some of them are cheaper.
Nobody else makes an truck that isn’t obnoxiously large
Plenty of companies make them. They just aren’t allowed to sell them in the U.S. most of the time. And that should be changed.
Yes, we’re finally getting some choices. Next time you need to purchase a personal vehicle, please consider which EV is right for you.
There are reasons Teslas are still most popular, and you may benefit by figuring out why, rather than spout propaganda
They are still the most popular because they have the most hype, not because they are the best choice.
What pros and cons have you personally experienced?
Not going to buy an EV. No charging stations nearby. Can’t install a charging station where I live. I probably have 10 years of driving left so I will stick with an ICE.
Seems like a good plan that’s right for your situation, but for all of our future, I hope that’s rare ten years from now.
For anyone in their own house, where it’s pretty straightforward to install a charger …. It’s damn nice to never again have to go to a local refueling station. Recharging your car can be just like your phone: plug it in overnight and it’s just always full.
Yeah, it can be a bit less convenient on a road trip, but 95+% time, plugging into your home charger is more convenient
In a statement, Kentucky Attorney General Russell Coleman accused President Biden of being “willing to sacrifice the American auto industry and its workers in service of its radical green agenda.”
If you look up the 10 most “Made in America” cars, the top 4 slots by a huge margin are Tesla Model 3,Y,S,X , which are all EVs, and they are at near 100% (or 100% for some models). There isn’t another American car brand on the list. So when Coleman is talking about sacrificing American auto workers, who’s he talking about? A car that is 40% American because all the parts are made in China or Mexico and there’s some final assembly done in the USA?
P.S. Musk is an idiot, though I’m not sure that needs to be said anymore as its so obvious.
So there are politicans who really believe that climate change is a conspiracy? Or they just don’t care for the future?
They’re bought by the oil industry
Electric cars aren’t going to fix climate change
It’s gonna help. There’s not an all out 1 solution.
But don’t you see, unless there is one magical silver bullet solution that fixes everything then it’s all worthless and we should go back to dumping CFC’s into the atmosphere.
We should defintely still make EVs, overall they are going to be better than ICE. We just shouldn’t force/subsidize everyone to have to buy and drive an EV like we did with ICE cars.
Electric trains might, but we’re even worse at building them than cars.
They can be built from acorn and twigs.
Are we? Diesel-ev hybrid is fairly effective and proven. Making a pure ev would just mean taking the diesel out, adding more batteries and installing electrical rail or over head trolley cables to charge them. Trains run on a schedule, so logistic planning should be straight forward.
Are we?
Recently, yes. California’s spent 16 years not building rail. The Gulf Coast states have been tearing their rail out and replacing it with highways for over a decade. The Upper Midwest has just kinda given up on doing anything useful, and just watched its transit infrastructure collapse.
My point is is that the tech is there. There’s just an unwillingness.
In the states, certainly. Elsewhere, its wildly popular.
The problem is that highway advocates don’t solve the problem of “who’s going to pay for all this?”. The reason infrastructure in America is in disrepair is that funding for highways is supposed to be gotten from tolls and road taxes. But since everywhere in America is a freeway… there’s no funding for repairs.
Expecting the Government budget to cover maintenance of infrastructure is wishful thinking… unless you’re also willing to agree that the military is allocated too much money.
funding for highways is supposed to be gotten from tolls and road taxes.
Regressive taxation leads to overfunded main roads and underfunded side streets.
Expecting the Government budget to cover maintenance of infrastructure is wishful thinking
Roads are fundamental to the operation of any government. It isn’t simply that states need to maintain roads. It is that states need roads in order to exist.
Who says EV are going to fix climate change?
Yes, but an easy target.
Ok then that means we have to consider the fact that Car-oriented zoning laws and construction are bad for our future. 15-minute cities and infrastructure to support alternative modes of transit for longer distances are the way forward.
I don’t think it matters whether or not they really believe it.
Those who don’t, believe in money.
Have you seen how old they are? Doesn’t matter for them.
No children, no niece?
What’s the plan if we run out of oil? I mean seriously, it’s gonna happen eventually. Even if you want to ignore the science on climate change, you can’t ignore basic laws of the universe that oil is a finite resource. If we don’t have a plan for when it runs out, there will be utter chaos.
We will move on. As it turns out there are billions if not trillions of dollars in that industry.
you can’t ignore basic laws of the universe that oil is a finite resource
TLDR - oil might be a finite resource but gasoline is not oil and it can be renewable. But it’s also a rapidly shrinking market.
The stuff can literally be grown on trees. It’s cheaper to pump it out of the ground, but it’s actually not much cheaper. Fuel from plants, which we farm in bulk for human consumption, can absolutely be used to create gasoline. It’s also net-zero — because the plant takes carbon out of the atmosphere to create the oil and then it’s simply returned to the atmosphere when your burn it.
Most gasoline in the USA contains at least 10% biofuel, and some is up to 85%. The latter requires an engine tuned to run on it, however it’s possible (and is an area of active research) if you’re willing to spend a bit more money to manufacture 100% pure biofuel that can run on unmodified engines. Porsche in particular has started selling a biofuel that is specifically designed to run on classic cars that were manufactured decades ago. They plan to produce something like a million gallons a month of the stuff, and it will work in basically any car. And if you have a classic car (designed for gasoline that contained lead) then it will work better than the fossil fuel you can buy at a gas station
The thing is though, battery powered vehicles are way cheaper than doing any of that. And if you really need a fuel based approach (e.g. batteries are just too heavy for large aircraft), then Hydrogen is a better option than any biofuel.
So - while gasoline can technically be environmentally friendly and is a usable source of energy for the foreseeable future, in reality it’s destined to follow horse drawn carriages and steam engines, a technology some people only use for their own personally enjoyment or to preserve our history.
Growing crops to make ethanol is not particulatly green. In fact, in most existing production loops we would be better off environmentally to just burn pure gasoline than produce the ethanol to mix into it, unfortunately. Too much water, too many tractors and trucks, and way too much electricity into ethanol production to be worth what we get out of it. And the bit of carbon the crops sequester doesn’t overcome it. Electric vehicles are by far the greenest option right now.
Not to mention ethanol (what the previous person kept referring to as “gasoline”) is far less efficient, can only be used in high quantities on certain types of engines, and creates excessive smog during warmer months.
Don’t forget that every acre of corn grown for ethanol is one less acre of food grown and when you increase from 10% ethanol to 100%, you’re going to need 10x the amount of land to grow these crops all so we can pay top dollar at the pump to live in smog filled cities and get 10MPG in our vehicles.
Burning any carbohydrates in inefficient piston engines is never going to be environmentally friendly, though.
Die. We will die. The only crutch that props up our massive jump from 1 billion pre industrialized society to our current 8 billion human beings on this planet, has been cheap and plentiful fossil fuel. Notably, it is the only thing that has allowed us to practice agriculture on a scale that supports our population growth. When it’s gone, there is nothing to replace it, short of a miracle fusion revolution.
The average carbon cost to produce an electric vehicle is about 6 tons on average, not including the battery, about the same as an ICE vehicle. Where does the energy for auto manufacturing come from? Primarily coal and natural gas, with a sliver of insubstantial wind and nuclear power. About 7 barrels of oil go into each and every tire on the road (between expended energy and actual petroleum products in the tire). Charging the battery? Coal, natural gas, and the same trickle of alternative sources mentioned above.
Speaking of those alternative energy sources, what do we use to make them? Building a nuclear power plant is likely the most carbon intensive process ever devised, from the machinery that moves the earth, to the foundry that makes the steel. As much as I’ve always wanted to believe in a cozy eco future, every time I squint a little I can see that it’s all just a coat of green paint over the same old oil field. The people trying to sell you on oil, and the people trying to sell you on alternatives to it, are doing the same thing. Selling you something. That’s all that matters to them.
There is no feasible alternative that changes the outcome. There is no replacement for what has allowed us to create wonders and horrors beyond our ancestors wildest dreams, and sustain a population far beyond anything we could have achieved without fossil fuels. When oil finally becomes unproductive, so will the mechanisms that hold our current civilization together, and we will wind up back in 1810 if we’re lucky, or 400ad if we aren’t.
Call me a doomer and downvote me or whatever. It doesn’t matter.
You’re getting too anxious about what every little thing costs the environment. Yes, you’re right, there’s no silver bullet that makes anything magically sustainable, but there also doesn’t have to be.
Pay more attention to the overall environmental cost, or the change in environmental cost. Of course we’ll never get to zero, but it’s quite possible to get to a sustainable level. The big example is always an EV: sure, it costs the environment a little more to make an EV than an ICE car, but looking at overall costs, you’ve already made that up after only two typical years of driving on most places. And that will only get better as manufacturing gets more efficient and power production gets more green
with a sliver of insubstantial wind and nuclear power
Dude, come on. Looking at US electricity production, yes, natural gas is the biggest. But nuclear production is about the same as coal. And renewables are about the same as coal. And coal is dropping like a rock while most new electricity production is renewables. Nuclear and renewables together are pushing 40%. Despite short sightedness from some of our corporate politicians, it’s way more than a sliver
I fully expected all replies to miss the point. You can’t make more nuclear power without massive amounts of petroleum based energy and products.
But, again, it doesn’t matter, and isn’t worth arguing about. People don’t get it because why would they want to get it? It sucks to get it.
But so what? Yes, there are dependencies and initial costs to the environment. Petroleum based energy and products are integrated throughout our economy, effectively everything is dependent on fossil fuels. Everyone gets it.
Building out things like nuclear power or EVs only effect the operations and only of those specific industries/products. It’s only a start but these are examples of great places to start, where we can make a significant and highly visible difference.
There’s a very long tail of things to work on, for the foreseeable future, but you can’t balk at less than perfect. Do one thing on the list. Then do the next
Synthetic. It has profit margin and purpose. Nothing we can’t fix without adding more bad things to the air…
Surely the oil and energy companies have their own investments into renewables. I can’t imagine why Rs would die on this hill except for their little culture war.
Because you can’t corner the renewables market like the oil markets have been. Also oil dependence means a constant need for oil. Solar panels or windmills are much more install and forget. So yeah, they can invest in oil alternatives, but they won’t make nearly as much money from it.
Oil companies usually do not, but electricity companies do. The problem is that oil companies are great in geology, drilling and chemistry. Geothermal is a similar skill set and chemistry can be used in other products, but the first is small business and the other not renewable nexessarily.
I like it much better when Republicans stick to pushing for things that are just useless rather than destructive.
republicans are raping the planet.
bOtH SiDeS AkShUaLlY
The cybertruck can go, sure, but let the rest be
They can go whether the driver wants them to or not once the pedal is stuck down. (Unless they’ve been mildly dampened outside of car wash mode.)
Then by all means let them drive themselves right off a high cliff
While I like the idea, unfortuanlty, that is bad for the environment. We are better off driving them into recycling plants to put the battieires and other materials towards something useful.
True. I was just thinking of the least expensive option
You probably forgot about the Hummer.
Yeah i did heh.
You could easily argue the Hummer is symbolic of the problem with legacy manufacturer’s attempts at EVs, or at least the most extreme
Rather than create an EV anyone can afford, rather than design a vehicle around the needs of an EV, rather than care about any sort of efficiency …. Take a monster of excess and just keep adding thousands of pounds of batteries until it works. And you end up with more of a monster of excess: excessive price, excessive consumption of batteries/materials, excessive weight. You have a vehicle designed for people who values excess, made it even more excessive and expensive, and try to sell it to customers in the name of efficiency and reduced pollution. Of course it won’t work.
You misspelled Russians.
I take that back, you spelled Russians correctly.
Fuck them
Look up thos congresspersons’ donor history
Bet my bottom dollar they’re getting donations from groups that tie back to the auto industry
Get the fucking money out of politics
I’d argue the oil and gas industry, not auto. Lots of auto industry players like GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota are selling EV’s. There’s a market for them, people want them, there’s money on the table. Why would auto not want that.
Have they tried helping Lower Gas Prices or are they just trying to make owning EVs Illegal like TRUE Small Government, Free Market Leaders would?
Why wouldn’t they? They are, after all, the craven whores who thirst for corporate donor cock.
Hey, I agree with the sentiment but sex work is a respectable job unlike being a crooked as shit congress person ruining the future of countless people :)
Also being a slut is a respectable job too, the world runs on sluts like me.
