This is not a hill I’d want to die on, but I do understand thinking this photo is fine. If I hadn’t been told it was from Playboy, I wouldn’t give it a second thought. It’s a conventionally-attractive woman in a hat showing a little shoulder. I wouldn’t be upset over Michaelangelo’s David either. It is less sexual than like 90% of modern TV or mass-market advertising. I suspect a similar image of “cleaner” provenance would not garner much attention at all, honestly.
But it is weird that an image from such a source was chosen in the first place. It is understandable that it makes people uncomfortable, and it seems like there should be no shortage of suitable imagery that wouldn’t, so…easy sell, I’d think.
On a related note, boy oh boy am I tired of every imagegen AI paper and project using the same type of vaguely fetishized portraits as examples.
Apparently the team making the first scanner needed a good test photo and that was the best they had on hand at that moment in terms of color variation and intensity.
There’s a bit more to the scan. You usually see the cropped version, but the full version has naughty bits. Not sure if it’s ever been published that way in journals.
No there’s not, the scan thats been used has cropped out the nudity, it’s in like the second paragraph,
Usage of the Lenna image in image processing began in June or July 1973 when an assistant professor named Alexander Sawchuck and a graduate student at the University of Southern California Signal and Image Processing Institute scanned a square portion of the centerfold image with a primitive drum scanner, omitting nudity present in the original image. They scanned it for a colleague’s conference paper, and after that, others began to use the image as well.
I really don’t think the image itself is the issue. It’s the culture that would lead to brazenly sharing a porn magazine aroundnthe office, and subsequently using the image for a test photo. Then that same culture decided it should be standard because they liked looking at it. It indicates a culture of objectification of women. If an industry feels like sharing porn around is perfectly acceptable, you have to consider what else they think is acceptable. That’s what makes people uncomfortable (I assume, though I’m a straight man so not personal experience, just empathy).
What’s wrong with sharing porn around?
Absolutely nothing. But imagine you’re working with some people and everyone’s constantly posting porn in the group chat. You’re just trying to kind of exist and get your work done. You might start to feel pretty uncomfortable with that culture.
There’s definitely a line between sex positivity, and including other people without their clear consent.
Here is an uncropped version of the image: [NSFW] https://mypmates.club/1972/Miss-November/Lena-Soderberg
Considering this it’s more understandable that it’s controversial.
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I don’t think the reason this is an issue is because it’s pornographic. It’s because it indicates a certain opinion that some people in the field had/have. Even in professional academic papers they were using a pornographic image of a woman, which shows their opinion of women is just as object to lust after.
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I disagree. I think in a more sexually open society people wouldn’t be treated like pieces of meat. They’d be treated like people. Their opinions about sexual content would be considered.
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It’s not just her opinion on the picture that matters though. Other women (and probably other people) don’t want it to be used as a standard test image.
I like that you’re making it out like I’m saying anything is impossible. I’m not. I’m stating that if people say they’re uncomfortable with something then they’re uncomfortable with it. It doesn’t matter how sexually open anything it. People’s opinions and consent are important, both that of the subject of the photo as well as other people in the field using this photo.
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I wouldn’t say that it necessarily expresses a certain opinion towards women. I think a lot of people used it just because that’s how it’s done. It’s a piece history, a “fun” tradition. A lot of people didn’t even knew that this was taken from a pornographic magazine.
However, thinking critically about it and considering a lot of good points, it’s surely not “fun” anymore and I also think it’s better to stop this.
I don’t see anything weird here…
The weird part is in the mirror.
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Streisand effect in motion. Me and a million other people get to see this for the first time today.
But the idea isn’t to keep anyone from seeing it. The idea is simply for a lusty image not to be used in academic papers (probably also better that it’s not used in college classes too).
I love pictures of scantily clad women more than almost anyone. But even I can agree that the Lena image sends the wrong message to women joining the field.
That’s fair and you are right, but I’m also pointing out a side effect this is causing. I find it interesting is all.
Forsén is quoted as saying, “I retired from modelling a long time ago. It’s time I retired from tech, too. We can make a simple change today that creates a lasting change for tomorrow. Let’s commit to losing me.”
Since Lena herself decided she wanted to retire the image, I don’t have any qualms with them not accepting new papers using it. It’s really weird that her “big break” came from scientific papers, of all things.
I do wonder, however, if more recent papers (2010 and forward) using that image were doing so as reference to older papers, or entirely contained to their own research.
I do wonder, however, if more recent papers (2010 and forward) using that image were doing so as reference to older papers, or entirely contained to their own research.
I hadn’t heard of this before this post, the pic is innocuous enough, i wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people don’t even know that’s a crop of an old magazine photo.
It’s a woman looking over their shoulder
It’s a cropped image of a naked woman looking over her shoulder out of a playboy magazine. I think it’s reasonable to stop using it for academic papers. You can still look at it all you want though.
That isn’t the issue
Issue is she’s female
I remember seeing an interview with the model, who at the time of the interview was in her 70s or 80s, she apparently wasn’t enthusiastic about having become a common test image. But since she had technically consented to be in Playboy (which was only a magazine at the time), there wasn’t anything she could do to stop it. I think in this case it’s probably best to stop using her image specifically, as it does kinda get into a weird messy situation of consent, and how her consent to be in a magazine morphed through technology into something more “permanent” than she originally realized. There are plenty of other models who would absolutely be down for that, and given enough time, knowing how nerds are, there will be other test images of women. But I think it’s probably for the best that this one gets retired from this use.
And yes, there are people who have tried to use this instance as a “there shouldn’t be images of attractive/implied nude women a standard test images, because it can cause body image issues for women who go into that field.” Which on one hand, I can see where they’re coming from, but also people take pictures of people, and some people do look better than most of us, having more diverse test images would be a good thing, because we don’t all look like that. But some do, and they’re probably going to get more pictures taken of them than the rest if us.
For those, interested in an overview about more criticism, just head to the according section on Wikipedia.
I would’ve thought a paper magazine is more permanent than digital media.
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“Her” or “their” are both perfectly correct English grammar. “Their” has been gender neutral since before Shakespeare. It can be used to refer to someone or something gendered or not. Learn English before you correct them for something inappropriately.
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Huh, I am sorry, I feel too dumb but I don’t want to live with the doubt, I read the article and the Wikipedia links and I still don’t know how this is a thing, this is the first time I know about it.
What exactly was the meaning of this image in the tech fields? “What image processing tests”?
I understand the model is tired of it already, but this won’t disappear from the Internet, how is this article gonna benefit her?
Here you go. A full explanation of everything.
Basically, people working on graphics-related algorithms needed to build a library of standard test images, so that when people published their work in an academic journal, they could easily demonstrate what that algorithm does, in a manner that is fairly obvious to anyone who is familiar with the image.
So someone, when they needed to pick an image that represents a person, scanned this photograph. And it could be argued that at the time, it was probably an interesting test image for a lot of reasons: person vs background, different textures, areas with soft and sharp focus, etc etc. If you developed, say, an image compression algorithm, those things are going to be headache in all photo portraits.
It’s probably not the best image by modern standards (being a low resolution scan of a photograph off of a printed magazine - not a photo print scan, not a direct film scan, and not comparable to digital photography). Also, it’s gotten overused to the point of absurdity. (Oh your hot new face detection algorithm works on this image? Well whoop-de-do.)
i think i’ve seen it used to demo different image compression algorithms, things like that. it was used as an easy example test image, but this journal has now banned papers from using it because it is weird and creepy to be using cropped porn for that. this won’t benefit the model, but she was only pushing to ban it because she wants more women in IT fields.
If a sample image is “making some women feel unwelcome in the field” you may be too sensitive for life.
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If you thought that making this comment was a good idea, you may be too misogynistic for life.
If you thought making this comment was a good idea you might need to get a grip on life.
This is not porn; it’s an art. There is nothing creepy about it. Moreover, if this picture is the reason why women aren’t in this field, then there is definitely a more serious problem, but it’s not where you are looking.
It’s both. It’s artsy softcore pornography.
I certainly don’t think the full version would be appropriate, but I’m ambivalent about the cropped version.
I don’t think people should get their knickers in a twist about sex in the first place.
Full picture (NSFW) https://mypmates.club/1972/Miss-November/Lena-Soderberg
It’s art, but it’s also porn. Those aren’t mutually exclusive. It’s from Playboy, which is a porn magazine. Look at it all you want, but it isn’t appropriate for research papers. There are plenty of alternatives.
Edit: Part of the reason more women aren’t in the field is because they’re often seen as pieces of meat. They’re objectified. They don’t use any cropped male nude photos for test images, because the men weren’t lusting over them. It’s used because it was a field ruled by men, and women were often treated as objects.
The thing is, there is no universal definition of pornography. It varies from country to country. In my country, it doesn’t fulfill some of the criteria, in particular because:
- It does not depict human genital organs in their sexual functions
- It does not solely focus on the technical aspects of sexuality and sexual life, completely detached from the intellectual and personal layers
The more important thing is that the cropped version of the picture (which was used in the research papers) does not fulfill any criteria to be classified as pornography or even as nude art. Some don’t even know that this is only part of a nude photo. I saw this cropped picture in the 90s and was surprised later in the early 2000s by the full version.
I would say more. This is an example where some random nude photo became something more because it became part of science. So it’s rather an example of “deobjectification” because this picture is focused on her face in the hat, and not her reproductive organs.
Regarding objectification, the picture of any kind has nothing to do with women being objectified. Any person may be objectified only by being treated by another person or group of people as an object. For example, a cleaning lady may be objectified by one employer who does not treat her like a living, feeling person, but not by another employer. The same applies to sex workers and any other profession. It is our attitude that determines whether we objectify someone, not the picture of a woman in a hat.
Pretend for a moment that you’re a woman. You go to the office and the men are openly sharing around a porn magazine with no concern. Does that seem like a safe professional workplace? That’s essentially what this represents. It isn’t what’s happening anymore, but it is the origin.
People also used to smoke in offices. Safe and professional is a relatively new thing.
Decorum changes over time, but it isn’t new. There’s always a set of rules people follow no matter where or when you are.
Everything about Playboy is creepy
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For the curious, you can find the uncropped photo by searching Lemmy posts for “Lenna”. It was posted to !retro@lemmynsfw.com a few months ago.
Here’s a comment on said NSFW post
I won’t link the post directly as it’s NSFW
This is kinda interesting. I work in this field and have seen that image show up all the time in papers but never knew the origins.
I think it’s the right move to ban it and I’m surprised there’s so many people defending it. This isn’t about censorship or being a prude or anything like that. It’s just a bit weird that it’s from a playboy and if you can’t understand how that would make some people uncomfortable then you might be a bit lacking in empathy.
The 3d world has Utah teapots and Stanford bunnies and dragons which are all very neutral and don’t hurt anyone. Perhaps we can move on and use some less alienating pictures for image processing papers, too.
I think it’s nice to have traditions inside areas of research, and if somebody said “let’s retire the Utah teapot. It’s too simple a construct and has no bearing anymore” I’d be opposed.
Similar with “Lenna”. Is it a good test image? Not anymore, but if somebody wants to include it as tradition then let them. It hurts no one. Nobody is making money off it. Most people just know it as an image that’s been in many seminal graphics papers they want to emulate, but even if they do know it as being from an issue of Playboy, why is that a problem?
I’m not angry about it. I’m not going to die on any hill about it. I just see it as pointless and infantile for the IEEE to refuse papers over something so trivial.
I’m wary of the argument for any practice continuing being just because it’s always happened and is “tradition”. Similarly though I’m wary of the argument that a valid practice should cease just because it makes a few people uncomfortable. If the only thing going for the Lena image is “tradition” then there really is no argument for keeping it.
Just about anything can make a few people uncomfortable
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The issue was that it did make some people uncomfortable, so it was harmful. You can’t just ignore the reasons stated and then say it’s pointless. The ban didn’t come out of nowhere.
That logic makes me uncomfortable, let’s ban you
Well said. I feel like so many people here are missing one of the biggest issues with the photo as far as I understand it, which is encouraging women into STEM. For many women I think this photo felt a bit like walking into a professor’s office to see they have bikini photos on their walls. It just cements the feeling that these sciences are boys’ clubs.
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Utah teapots
Offensive to people who react bad to caffeine or whose relatives had been killed by a falling teapot.
Stanford bunnies
Offensive to people who think there’s a furry connection.
and if you can’t understand how that would make some people uncomfortable then you might be a bit lacking in empathy.
I can understand that and those people can use another image when making their own examples.
It’s not a bad thing to have more empathy, but there’s common sense.
Down the bottom there are some statistics about how many women experience sexual harassment and gender based discrimination in STEM positions. They also tend to have worse outcomes in general and fewer will go on to work in their field.
While this might seem like a small thing, ignoring these kinds of outdated and unnecessary boys club attitudes is exactly the kind of thing perpetuating these sorts of outcomes.
If you can’t see how using a cropped image from a playboy for no reason in an image processing paper is different from your made up examples and could make some people feel uncomfortable then maybe you’re lacking common sense and empathy.
It wasn’t chosen for no reason. It was chosen because it presents good test cases for image processing. Not great ones, just the best they had at that particular moment.
You’re right, I wasn’t particularly clear. That was certainly the case originally, I just don’t think there is a good reason for it going forward.
Historical reasons. I personally used it in a project around 2015 because of its history. And you’d need to use it if you’re comparing against anything else that used it, though given its age, that seems unlikely.
But like I said elsewhere, I’m ambivalent about its future use.
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Sounds fair. If you can produce it as a more suitable test image than the others available, I’ll use it.
The thing is that those reasons are made up just like my examples.
While this might seem like a small thing, ignoring these kinds of outdated and unnecessary boys club attitudes is exactly the kind of thing perpetuating these sorts of outcomes.
I don’t think this is correct.
then maybe you’re lacking common sense and empathy.
Maybe I just don’t confuse empathy with doing what idiots want me to do.
People were surveyed about the image, there are articles about it, an entire documentary has been made about it with the support of Lenna. How you can just come along and say that’s all made up is honestly beyond me. And I’m pretty sure that the collective IEEE and the ethics researchers who have written about this aren’t idiots. I really think you are confused about what empathy is, but I don’t see myself convincing you of that. So uh, have a nice day.
Yeah, there’s a reason experiments are not being replaced by voting.
You may consider this comment of yours valuable if you want.
I would be very surprised if the population of “people upset by the use of a teapot/bunny as a test render” was even within a couple orders of magnitude of “people upset by the use of a porn photo as a test image”
Is a little shoulder porn now?
No. But the fact that it isn’t obviously from a porn shoot doesn’t change that it’s from a porn shoot. The model has indicated she doesn’t want it used for this, and other women have indicated they are bothered by this.
Are you really insinuating that there isn’t any other possible standard besides this exact photo to demonstrate methods?
See? I can straw-man too.
doesn’t change that it’s from a porn shoot
Your point? (I’d call it more erotica than porn but that’s irrelevant.) If your culture sexualizes nudity per se that’s not my problem and if nudity offends you well that’s your problem. She consented to this, was an adult at the time, got paid for it and moved on (and, for most of her life, couldn’t care less).
The model has indicated she doesn’t want it used for this
It’s a pretty valid reason to me and it would be nice if people respected that. Do note that Playboy has the rights of the photo though, not her, but chose to let it slide 'cos… free publicity.
there isn’t any other possible standard besides this exact photo
I never said that. It’s an old photo, along with all the other photos of the time it should’ve been retired ages ago, on technical grounds.
But these are not the reasons the IEEE is banning the photo, now are they?
This is an interesting video on the matter.
She consented to this, was an adult at the time, got paid for it and moved on
Sorry, consented to what? And what does that have to do with this? The existence of the photo or its continued use as a photo and as porn are not at issue.
Do note that Playboy has the rights of the photo though, not her
And again, this isn’t a rights issue. Lena isn’t upset because her rights are being violated, and neither is anyone else.
I never said that.
And I never said photos of shoulders are porn. You made a straw man or my argument, so I made a straw man or yours. Neither one was particularly useful to discuss.
Of course there were reasons the photo was chosen originally, convenience and the fact that it has just the right amount of complicated detail. But those don’t really matter now because, as you said:
It’s an old photo, along with all the other photos of the time it should’ve been retired ages ago, on technical grounds.
People are upset because the use of a photo from a porn shoot, especially one that has no other particular reason to use it besides “tradition,” is emblematic of a culture that is exclusionary to women.
Any defense of the use of this photo which does not address those points isn’t really a good faith argument.
Any defense of the use of this photo which does not address those points isn’t really a good faith argument.
According to you.
Tradition is not really an excuse for anything really.
Banning something harmless is censorship. It’s a test image of a beautiful woman, not glorifying violence or terrorism.
It’s not censorship. They can choose to publish or not publish anything they want. Anyone is still free to publish the image in other journals that don’t ban it.
if you can’t understand how that would make some people uncomfortable then you might be a bit lacking in empathy.
I’m lacking in empathy.
The 3d world has Utah teapots and Stanford bunnies and dragons which are all very neutral and don’t hurt anyone.
Ooooh i’m sure someone, somewhere, somehow will feel offended. Better ban those too.
Yes, the provenance is “questionable”, but it’s a pic of a human wearing a hat, ffs.
The model being tired of it would be enough reason for me to stop using it (as you mentioned, there are plenty of alternatives); but American prudeness? No.
This isn’t about prudishness. No one’s offended by the picture. It makes people uncomfortable because it’s from a playboy. The problem is that it brings the objectification of women to the fore in a male dominated field where women often face sexual harassment and aren’t taken seriously.
I’ve seen more skin in a Sears catalogue in the 90s. Yeah I was a teenager shut up. People need to get over themselves.
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How do you think you were born?
Huh I had no idea!
I’m pretty sure I compressed that image in our computer vision class with some alogrithm we implemented for exercise. I though that was just some artsy over the shoulder picture, but seeing the full version the shoulder does seems supicious in hindsight.
In art class it’s not uncommon to hire nude models to pose like Lena. Nothing suspicious except fuckin Christians imposing their prudishm
First learned about that image on this video https://youtu.be/yCdwm2vo09I
Are they published by Elsevier? Just tell them it’s AI-generated and they’ll be happy to publish it.
The Lena image is (was?) featured quite prominently in the OpenCV docs and tutorials. Kinda weird it only now goes noticed.
In a 1999 essay on reasons for the male predominance in computer science, applied mathematician Dianne P. O’Leary wrote: .
Suggestive pictures used in lectures on image processing … convey the message that the lecturer caters to the males only. For example, it is amazing that the “Lena” pin-up image is still used as an example in courses and published as a test image in journals today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenna#Criticism
That’s 25 years ago…
It’s been noticed for ages. This is not the first time the issue has been discussed
It’s been banned from Nature for a while now
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I mean, yes you can? You can inform authors that papers that include the image will not be published. How is that not a ban?
Well you can refuse to accept papers that contain it. No problem with that. It’s their internal guidelines.
You should risk reading the article before you sound like you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Right… Let’s eliminate every instance of nudity because religious zealots were offended by it in the past, and now leftist zealots are offended. Let’s remove the statue of David and all other art depicting the naked human body. Later, let’s remove anything from public view that could potentially offend anyone.
I have a friend who is a sex freelance journalist writing for everyone from the NYT to Playboy and she’s been outspoken recently around a neo-puritan movement by younger generations.
People aren’t having as much sex, have a lot more hangups about sex, are uncomfortable with sex depicted in media, etc.
This image didn’t even contain nudity - it’s a crop of the original that’s in question.
There are broader social impacts for seemingly innocuous efforts like these, and I don’t know it’s all that healthy for us to be constantly self-thought policing when it comes to sex. Those attitudes seem to be moving beyond the immediate focus and into general attitudes and behaviors around sexual hangups.
We’re seeing “purity culture”-like mentality infecting people who weren’t even raised in oppressive religious contexts.
I can see the same thing, and I couldn’t agree more. Do you happen to have an article of hers to share?
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Meanwhile women nurses doctors and teachers sell themselves on Instagram and onlyfans
Yes, let’s just shove everyone into one drawer and completely forget that some do it for fun, some out of financial necessity, and let’s also forget all the problems it can cause when using such an image in lectures, research and similar professional settings. /s
So? They can do what they like, just like Lena could for the original image. Hell, I applaud them for it!
I also think Lena looks beautiful in the commonly used image, and it doesn’t bother ME one bit that the image shows up in research.
But all of that is completely separate from whether it is appropriate to use a cropped playboy image in professional settings (it should be UN-cropped, am I right fellas? /s). However, if it genuinely offends the people around me, or makes them feel marginalized or less valued, well then it DOES start to bother me a little bit.
It’s OK to change the world in a way that doesn’t affect you but improves the life of somebody else.
And? If they were paid adequately they wouldn’t have too and even if they are paid adequately its their body and their decision.
And I don’t think any of their nude photos are appropriate for academic papers (unrelated to nudity research) either?
