It’s so bizarre to see this discussion play out on the basis of “health”
Because there is a legitimate discussion to be had about the economics of how milk pasteurization requirements have affected local dairy farms. How the unsanitary conditions of industrial scale milk production have made it a necessity. How marketing and corporate interests have shifted consumption patterns.
And yet these fucking dipshits have turned this in to “pasteurized milk personally harms you!” In grifter circles.
How screwed are we that we can’t talk about the complexities of how corporate farming practices have effected our food supplies with out couching it in terms of “health food”.
I cannot express how much I hate the term “health food”. There is no such fucking thing as a “health food”.
It makes me want to rip my hair out when these topics come up.
This problem has always bugged me writ large as well. It seems nearly impossible to have any conversation that looks at the bigger picture of things in a complete and nuanced way.
Take for example employment rates. It’s just taken as a given that high employment is the goal. But stop and think about that for a second. In any other part of your life is your goal to completely saturate all time with labor? No, obviously not.
But the goals are set and we must achieve them. More money next quarter than last quarter, it doesn’t matter if every conceivable customer already has a subscription, we must grow. Make the product cheaper to make, charge more, do anything but consider that we might have picked stupid goals.
Agreed with everything you said. I had a class about bio processes and one of them was about production of cheese and during the class both our professor and the scientist that was walking us through the chemistry of cheese making were constantly talking how pasteurization was really good for us all and how annoying it was that it made cheese making more difficult because of the way it messed with casein and other proteins, making it so that the cheese wouldn’t “coagulate” correctly (they used a specific term that I cannot remember for the life of me, sorry) but that was all. A protein being bent up a bit doesn’t negatively affect the milk of where just drinking it or using it to bake, Ave even for cheese making there are tequiniques to still make it into cheese with pasteurized milk.
And I’m and American in Colombia where they pasteurize the milk to the point where it is stored at room temperature.
There is a way. Just mix it with equal parts hard liquor.
That sounds like a fun night
I heard bleach works good too.
So you get a liquid that’d roughly 20% alcohol and mostly milk?
Yeah that’s not gonna do it.
Try this:
Even if you do 95% everclear (which we don’t even have in the EU, we’d fucking kill ourselves with that shit), you’d still only get 47.5% alcohol with the rest being milk, which is not enough to sterilise it.
Like above 42% will kill a lot of stuff in it, but it’s not enough to sterilise it.
OK, but pasteurization doesn’t sterilize it either. And if you can’t get everclear, you probably can’t get raw milk. And, OP was making a joke…
Sure man, but I’m a pedant with a shit sense of humour and I like to point out myths that may or may not be actually relevant if it “came down to it.” And unlike in the movies where you just spray some whisky on a wound, alcohol isn’t a magical get-rid-of-all-chance-of-infection when it’s in levels of like <50%.
I recall they were telling us it needed to be pretty much exactly 70% to sanitise hands during COVID
A lot of people take humor as fact, either by not understanding it as satire or by thinking it’s funny because it’s true etc. So while a bit of a party pooper, I don’t think some light correction is all that harmful.
Very kind of you.
Man, a shot of Vodka at 40% has me questioning my life choices, I cannot imagine taking a shot of this goddamn paint thinner holy shit
It would suck the water out of your mouth :)
Yeah, that’s why you mix it with raw milk.
Damn.
I didn’t have “Raw Milk encouraged by the US govt. causes second pandemic in 5 years” on my bingo card for 2025.I’m not ready for Moovid…
I like to moovid, moovid.
Or cowvid for that matter
I vote Cowvid, but I’m concerned about it being confused with videos of cows.
Better that than confused people watching videos of Joe Rogan or Trump or something, maybe there’s a natural deterrant against disinformation in the name by just getting people to watch cows all day long. Then again I’m sure people would start taking cow dewormer eventually.
Stop drinking milk not intended for you, problem solved. Go Vegan !
I greatly enjoy eating vegans. Very lean and easy to catch.
nature doesn’t have intent
Yes it does, we invented it ON PURPOSE
Nah
Fr. It tastes the same, barely taxing for the environment compared to cow milk (depending on the type of milk), plus you don’t torture animals. Sounds like a win-win-win situation to me
Edit: Gimme your downvotes guys. I thrive on them 💅🏻
Your comment is great. Please keep speaking up for morals!
Appreciate you 🙏🏻❤️
It absolutely does not taste the same. Which works for me because I don’t like the taste of cow milk.
There are some brands that emulate the taste of cow milk for those who want that is what I meant. Obviously my view is skewed given that I’ve been vegan for like 4 years
The main thing for me is most people are lactose intolerant to some degree. It can be worth trying alternative milks just to see if you feel better with it.
They are weak, and can only be purified through the gas of adversity
Edit: flatulence
It occurred to me that the other phrasing could be problematic
Lol I liked both versions!
milking cows isn’t torture, but I’m pretty sure humans have a bigger carbon footprint than cattle
Forceful impregnation, constant pregnancy, kicked and beaten calves and their mothers, separation of calves from the mother and their killing. Shall I go on?
artificial insemination isn’t torture. cows aren’t kept constantly pregnant. kicking and beating cows isn’t part of husbandry. killing cows at the end of their useful life is fine.
artificial insemination isn’t torture.
Doing so to a creature who can’t consent is pretty wack though.
cows aren’t kept constantly pregnant
Female mammals, including cows, produce milk as a result of pregnancy in order to feed their young. The dairy industry is for-profit, they’re not going to let their dairy cows have downtime from producing milk if there’s money to be made.
kicking and beating cows isn’t part of husbandry.
The meat and dairy industries have lobbied hard for ag-gag laws criminalizing photography on their farms after abuses have been discovered by undercover investigators and activists. It is undoubtedly a part of animal agriculture. Here’s a whole paper about it, if it interests you.
killing cows at the end of their useful life is fine.
It definitely isn’t the worse part of the miserable lives we make them live after breeding them in massive numbers. It’s probably a relief at that point.
Also, just a sidenote here, I scrolled a bit through your history and you seem to go on the defensive for meat and dairy whenever you come across anything relating to veganism or the negative impacts of those industries. You engage with vegan content much more than I do and I’m vegan! I don’t think I can change your mind about veganism, nor do I really feel the desire to write any more than I already have. But, I don’t know, maybe go comment on stuff you enjoy rather than getting riled up about this stuff? It might make for a more enjoyable experience on lemmy.
Thanks for writing this up. I just knew they would get all defensive so I didn’t even want to bother replying, but I’m very happy about other people chiming in. vegoon btw ❤️
go comment on stuff you enjoy rather than getting riled up about this stuff
I don’t tell you what to do. kindly return the courtesy.
further, I’m not riled up but your screed indicates you might be.
you seem to go on the defensive for meat and dairy
your characterization is irrelevant to the truth of what I’ve said.
The meat and dairy industries have lobbied hard for ag-gag laws criminalizing photography on their farms after abuses have been discovered by undercover investigators and activists.
and that’s bad
but it’s still not necessary to kick cattle for milk
Female mammals, including cows, produce milk as a result of pregnancy in order to feed their young.
they don’t have any volition in the matter. they produce milk. period. but they’re not constantly pregnant.
According to google, they need to birth one calf a year after a 9 month pregnancy, so they are pregnant 3/4 of their adult life, that sounds close enough to constant. Also, did you need to make 5 different comments?
Doing so to a creature who can’t consent is pretty wack though
it’s a veterinary procedure
What about milk intended for me? I mean, my mom may have trouble producing at her age, but…
Good news! As long as its given consentually then human milk is vegan!
Gross edit: some body builders buy it to bulk up!
the vegan society definition makes no mention of consent.
That could be! Despite that, a big part of minimizing harm is consent!
not necessarily
Fellow lemming is so single they can’t get milk from their partner. UwU
I think my girlfriend would be weirded out if I asked her to take domperidone…
You can’t milk a blow-up doll…
Not with that attitude
you’re saying that cows aren’t supposed to exist
For the other non scientists here is a good article explaining what “raw milk” is. https://www.uclahealth.org/news/article/dangers-raw-milk-arise-bacteria
TLDR: they boil milk to nuke bacteria, “raw milk” is what they call milk that hasn’t had that happen and is dangerous, especially considering recent events.
You know it’s great to question why we do the things the way we do them, but question them and answer them logically
The problem is when they ignore the answer to keep asking the question waiting to hear what they want to hear.
Food safety is communism!
Louis Pasteur is rolling in his grave…
He is boiling in his grave. Probably milk.
Only for a few seconds. And he’s not even boiling. After that he’s fine.
rollingcurdling
Maybe ingest it and then use UV light or inject bleach. I hear Ivermectin helps against everything.
Ugh my wife’s step-sisters husband is a pharmacist. His body is riddled with tumors but he swears the ivermectin and supplements are what’s fighting the cancer. Not the chemo. Nope. That’s promoting the cancer.
Self solving problems are the best problems.
Agreed. I’m not to fond of him (or my wife’s step-sister, for that matter)…obviously I don’t want him to die, or be in pain…but I feel real bad for his kids (my step-niblings). They’re already at a tough age (middle school), their dad is dying, and they’ve all drunk the Kool aid. The whole side of the family has, save for maybe one or two of my half-BILs.
Last week, the mom (who runs an upscale clothing store) was saying she only wants to hire old white ladies and won’t hire kids anymore. The daughter pipes up saying “yeah kids these days are lazy, they don’t want to work”, parroting the parents talking points. But literally 30 seconds later, the mom is saying that it’s the slow season and she’s spending most of her day watching Netflix. The self-awareness is just completely missing.
Is this why Mister Brain Worms wants to sell raw milk? So bird flu spreads since worms hate birds
Crazy how if it was any democrat saying drink raw milk s/he would likely be accused of a conspiracy in which he is trying to spread bird flu so they can have another pandemic and vaccine manufacturers make money out of it. But when a republican says it, s/he is probably celebrated for using the wisdom of our grand grand parents.
I mean, viruses are kind of Trumps thing. Maybe H5N1 kills another million or so to mark his second term.
H5N1 is way, way more lethal than Covid19.
If it were to mutate to spread between humans without decreasing in lethality it would probably be the deadliest event in human history by a significant margin.
It has been contracted by humans, but because we pasteurize and ultra pasteurize, the problem has been mostly moot. I’m still using ultra pasteurized dairy. It’s typically those who work very closely with the animals and such. Many a farmer will dip into that raw milk for their own table too.
CDC data has 29 human cases 15 of which were serious to critical, with 7 deaths. That is NOT a large enough pool to establish a meaningful percentage, but it’s worth keeping an eye on with some level of concern. Especially with the number of medically minded dipshits we have in this country.
On the bright side, if H5N1 kills off all its hosts, it’ll effectively eradicate itself
H5N1 would kill a lot more than a million if it goes H2H.
it would be celebrated as “freedom”
ThE FlU Is JuSt A BaD CoLd! If BiRdS CaN TaKe It WhAtS yOuR PrObLeM sNoWfLaKeS?
Am i seeing this right, that you can buy raw milk in grocery stores? What the fuck?
Raw milk gets bad way to fast in order to sell it in a grocery store.
Imagine deliberately paying a premium for food that can make you seriously ill.
Imagine deliberately paying a premium for food that can make you seriously ill.
This applies to maybe 80% of what’s in a grocery store.
When kept below about 3C raw milk can last 7-10 days. The problem mainly is in the handling - the longer it’s shipped and more it’s handled the higher the likelihood it ends up above safe temperatures, reducing that time significantly. And we’ve all seen how grocery stores handle their perishables… LOL.
Filthy farming practices don’t help.
Filthy farming practices don’t help.
No they don’t. And that applies universally.
Considering farms are pretty much exclusively in rural areas and how rural areas generally lean politically, it’s a testament to the human immune system that food poisoning deaths aren’t more widespread. Or maybe a testament to the usefulness of food production regulations. Guessing we’ll find out which one by 2030, assuming it will be allowed to be reported on.
Or maybe new conspiracy theories will pop up over the next few years, oddly aligning with current health and safety science.
EVEN THOUGH VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM, TURNS OUT THEY’VE BEEN PREVENTING LIBERAL DISEASES THAT CAUSE BABIES TO COUGH THEMSELVES TO DEATH THIS WHOLE TIME!
NOT BRINGING MILK TO JUST UNDER A BOIL MIGHT MAKE IT SAFER TO CONSUME BUT IS HURTING THE OIL COMPANIES THAT GIVE US THE FREEDOM TO TRAVEL (WHEN YOU HAVE AN APPROVED REASON TO TRAVEL)!
SOLAR PANELS STEAL ENERGY FROM THE SUN, REDUCING ITS EXPECTED LIFETIME, BUT BRAND NEW TRUMP PANELS GENERATE FREE ELECTRICITY FROM THE VACUUM WHEN EXPOSED TO DIRECT LIGHT!
Considering farms are pretty much exclusively in rural areas and how rural areas generally lean politically, it’s a testament to the human immune system that food poisoning deaths aren’t more widespread
It may be helpful to read up on food-borne illnesses and their vectors. I say this because what I interpret from your comment is that rural areas are “dirty” and that right-leaning areas are somehow “dirtier” by virtue of being lax in food safety.
Strictly speaking this isn’t the way it works and it’s important to understand how contamination occurs. Almost all pathogens end up in food in two ways: field hands with inadequate sanitation and contamination through handling, processing, and packaging. The vast majority of these cases occur when food supply chains are long and complex and when safety is compromised in the name of profit. For example cutting corners in poultry handling or paying farm workers by the unit rather than by time, such that they are strongly incentivized to urinate or defecate in the field.
Food production regulations are actually quite stringent further along the supply chain (See the Food Safety Modernization Act and Produce Safety Rule) but there are gaps (this is an ag joke) on the production side, particularly in enforcement.
Your best bet is to seek to shorten the supply chain for the food you buy. Avoid processed foods and buy as close to the source as you can. Favoring organically-grown produce direct from a farmer just about guarantees that your food is safe. For example, organic regulations through the National Organic Program require a long period of time between use of manure and harvesting to ensure pathogens break down. It’s a common misconception that poop is used directly on growing crops.
Some reading:
USDA food borne illness guide: https://www.fsis.usda.gov/food-safety/foodborne-illness-and-disease FSMA Final Rule on Produce Safety: https://www.fda.gov/food/food-safety-modernization-act-fsma/fsma-final-rule-produce-safety
It may be helpful to read up on food-borne illnesses and their vectors. I say this because what I interpret from your comment is that rural areas are “dirty” and that right-leaning areas are somehow “dirtier” by virtue of being lax in food safety.
Yeah, I meant the association between right-leaning and “probably thinks safety regulations are a government overreach and waste of time that can be ignored if you can get away with it”. And non-existent rights for immigrant workers, including unhygienic living conditions imposed on them.
And an assumption that choices between profit or safety will be more likely to err on the side of profit than safety if they believe they can get away with it, with the “fuck you, I got mine” mindset seeming to be stronger on the right.
Thanks for the comment and info though. My own comment wasn’t really fair or useful.
It’s a good point. And certainly a lot are resistant to any oversight or regulation. But I find right-leaning people are actually very quick to obey and are generally pretty compliant, for all the bluster. They are fearful people.
But also there is a strong incentive to ensure food you grow is not going to kill your customers or get you sued. But this only really works when it’s you as an individual. As soon as you are a corporation…
Is it like a new thing? I never heard anyone making a fuss about raw milk other than like the Amish for the quarter of a century I’ve been around.
It seems to be based around the people who just look for problems to have, like okay when are people gonna start drinking bottled puddle water because “its got natural minerals and bacteria” or some nonsense.
Raw water was a thing. Not sure if it’s still a trend but it definately happened.
Isn’t that just like Fiji water type brands where they just “fill the bottles with natural spring water” when it’s just coming from some basin?
Here’s the link to the Cleveland Clinic article about the raw water trend: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/raw-water
Doesn’t it last 5-7 days? In Europe it is long enough.
People like my boomer mother will buy a gallon of milk and expect it to be good for 2+weeks.
She is part of the reason I do a small shopping every couple days and only buy what I need for the foreseeable future. An entire generation of Americans that are used to everything being so pumped with preservatives that we can eat a Twinkie that rolled under the couch last presidential election.
Yet, we have to scrub eggs of their natural coating at the farm, requiring them to be refrigerated.
Food regulation in the US hasn’t moved very far from the 60s.
All i can say is, that at “normal” refrigirator temperatures milk will be good for 3-4 days. Cant say anything for temperatures below that
Looked at milk I have.
Expiration period: 6 days.
Storage temperature (4±2) °C
Did you mean 3-4 days since purchase? Here it’s counted from production date.
I mean 3-4 days since production. In this case it might be higher, since Theres no exposure to the surrounding air.
Why are people surprised by this? Do you guys not have refrigerators in your grocery stores?
Raw milk gets bad after about 3-4 days, even with constant cooling. This period is way to short to sell it at grocerie stores in any big scale.
Are you american?
Bo and it is in no way relevant. Since it seems like you think that what I say is wrong, I know this, because I came from a farm.
because I came from a farm
I know what you mean but this amuses me immensely.
It is relevant. The quality of the food chain and regulations where you live play a huge role in that particular society’s feel about raw products.
You’d be surprised to find that in some countries people eat raw ground pork as a normal thing and nobody dies.
I’d like to know which farm you worked in because the fact you think so poorly about the food that comes out of it means I absolutely need to avoid anything you guys make.
It is relevant. The quality of the food chain and regulations where you live play a huge role in that particular society’s feel about raw products.
OK, you got a point there.
For the other part, you can trust me, that in a refrigerator milk will get bad after 3-4 days. If you cool it at about 2-3°C it is good for longer time(obviously), but I can’t tell how long exactly, because the milk never gets that old. As for Quality its quite interesting, that you make assumptions about it without knowing anything. I can assure you, that the milk has good quality. It gets tested every 2 days in terms of fat, germs, protein, and SCC and all of those parameters are always good.
And meat goes bad in the fridge after only a few more days but I don’t see you having a meltdown over butcher shops existing.
In reality people consume raw milk all the time, it’s just some countries with absolutely garbage consumer protections where you should avoid drinking it.
NO NO NO raw milk bad! Alternative ideas bad! New evidence bad! Bad things bad!
username checks out
You see, in America, the milk cattle live in terrible conditions. Mastitis is common. In the US, you really have to pasteurize the milk to kill all the bacteria and viruses that end up in the milk because of the conditions they live in.
I can’t say anything about the general health and living conditions of the US cattle, but taking your word for granted its devinetively advised. If the cows are kept under good conditions and a good hygiene is practised usually germs in raw milk aren’t that much of a problem.
There is a video I will not point you to, because a hundred vegans probably have already, that show how sad and disgusting factory farming in the US is. I wouldn’t drink anything that came out of one of those depressing animal factories unless it had been processed to hell and back.
There are better options on the market, but the average American is going to pay a buck or two less for a gallon from the milk factory. Same thing with eggs, meat.
Conscious food choices are a luxury, here.
They’re forced to stand in their own squalor without stalls being mucked out. It’s cruel and disgusting.
We do, but we also have pasteurization.
It’s like saying ‘yes we have foie gras but we also have store brand meat product.’
Mmm gourmet bacteria and viruses.
Oh no, germs. You should go ahead and inject yourself with UV bleach.
You should go ahead and inject yourself with e. coli.
I would but the food control and regulations in my country make it unlikely to happen.
If they’re not from the USA they’re just sparkling pathogens.
Okay, whether or not raw milk is generally safe, why buy it when there’s an alternative that removes the pathogens?
These people voted for trump. Critical thinking isn’t in their repertoire.
THe PaThOGeNs aRe gOoD fOr yOU!!!
Because raw milk contains everything, including all the fat and all the vitamins.
Processed milk usually is first separated between fat and liquid and then the fat is readded. Also the pasteurization destroys some of the vitamins.
More importantly though it just tastes different.
Finally if you want to make yogurt or cream cheese, you want to work of raw milk because it contains the fermenting bacteria, but that is more of a niche application.
Pasteurization by default does not remove all bacteria and probably also not all viruses. The milk you commonly find in supermarkets these days is not only pasteurized at high temperature, but also homogenized (pressed through a microsieve), which further alters the taste, reduces quality but extends the shelf life.
Finally if you want to make yogurt or cream cheese, you want to work of raw milk because it contains the fermenting bacteria, but that is more of a niche application.
If you’re going to make anything from milk that requires bacterial cultures and the conditions under which they will grow, you absolutely do not want whatever random cultures that are in a raw product. You start clean and add the cultures you want to propagate. Source: ferments things at home
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Why are you getting your vitamins from milk?
Most people get their vitamins from their food, not from dietary supplements.
Last I checked, food other than milk exists.
What the fuck kind of stupid answer is that?
Last I checked, food other than beans exists.
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I was just giving reason, that exist to prefer raw milk. I only ever drank raw milk when spending vacations on a farm and i didn’t buy cow milk since a couple of years.
Still i would like to say that i don’t think raw milk is a problematic vector for pandemics to spread. Chance is people will get the shits if hygiene is bad, but i doubt a viral pandemic to spread because of raw milk. More likely would be farm workers getting an infection over the air and then spreading it to other humans.
People who study viruses for a living seem to think it’s possible, but I guess as long as you doubt it, no problem.
Pandemic from raw milk? Do you have a source for that?
I’m told that if you mix in some bleach, it’ll “do a tremendous number” on the pathogens.
always a relevant xkcd no matter the topic
Except for the fact of there always being a relevant xkcd. Maybe Randall isn’t big on self-reference.
Surely this is satire. One of you guys made this as a joke, right? Right?!?
